Wimpy Gauss Weapons

A thread of 3 messages, 9 April 1990 to 18 April 1990, in the order they were sent.

#1196 Wimpy Gauss Weapons

I just fired up my Mega-Traveller campaign last Friday night and really got
the players moving.  However, as a result of a narrowly-avoided firefight,
one of my more experienced players voiced a loud objection to the numbers
given by GDW for weapon penetration in the Players manual.  When the player
in question discovered that the Gauss Rifles (TL 13) aboard their starship
couldn't penetrate Battle Dress or Combat Armor from the same tech. level,
he pointed out that this would be like sending soldiers into battle with
flak jackets, and arming them with weapons that couldn't kill an enemy
wearing the SAME flak jackets.

He has a point.

I would like to think that GDW gave more than just passing thought to the
numbers they picked for armor values and penetration values for the armor
and weapons used in MT.  I have consolidated the relevant information into
the 2 tables shown below (taken from Players' Manual, pp. 74,76, and the
Imperial Encyclopedia, pp. 75):

Armor              TL   Armor Value
- ----------------   --   -----------
Combat Env. Suit   10        6
Combat Armor-11    11        8
Combat Armor-12    12       10
Combat Armor-14    14       18
Battle Dress-13    13       10
Battle Dress-14    14       18

Weapon                    TL    Pen. Value*
- ------                    --    ----------
ACR 7mm                   10        4
ACR 9mm                   10        6
ARL 10mm------------------10       10
Gauss Rifle 4mm           12        7
Gauss Pistol 4mm          13        4
Laser Pistol-13-----------13        6
Laser Carbine-13          13       12
Laser Rifle-13            13       20
Integral Laser Pistol-14--14        6**

NOTES:
    *  - In most cases, these weapons have a variety of penetration values,
         base on their ammo type.  The number shown is the highest penetration
         available.
    ** - This penetration value is assumed to be the same a that of the
         Laser Pistol-13, since none is given in the Player Manual.

Plasma and Fusion weapons are deliberately being ignored as no sane referee
would let his players romp around with those things in tow during the majority
of a typical campaign. (My apologies to those Refs. among you who do, in fact,
allow this.  Please don't shoot me :-).)

Given these numbers, and the description of 'Zero Penetration' on pg. 70 of
the Players' Manual, the Combat Environment Suit, Combat Armor-11, Combat
Armor-12, and Battle Dress-13 can only be penetrated by the ARL, the Laser
Carbine and the Laser Rifle.  Further, the Combat Armor-14 and Battle Dress-14
can only be penetrated by the Laser Rifle!  Now, all of this is mitigated by
the fact that you can penetrate these types of armor if you achieve exceptional
success on your attack round, but that doesn't seem like something you should
be relying on.  The gauss rifle in particular has been significantly watered
down from it's original descriptions in Classic Traveller (Mercenary) and
Azhanti High Lightning.  Does this mean that gauss rifles are passe as battle-
field weapons?

Since the 4mm Gauss Rifle and Combat Armor-12 both evolved at the same Tech.
level (TL 12), and since the Gauss Rifle was obviously intended to be a
combat weapon, you would think it would be designed to routinely penetrate
the standard personal body armor of the period.  This strikes me as a
major oversight in the combat mechanics.

This brings us to the next topic: AUTOMATIC WEAPON FIRE.  Page 73 of the
Players' Manual describes auto-weapon fire as delivering 5 rounds per
trigger pull instead of 1.  While this may be used to hit multiple targets
adjacent to the primary target, the rules neglect some important points.

First, some weapons (i.e. Gauss Rifle and Pistol) have specific auto-fire
numbers given in the Imperial Encyclopedia (4 for the pistol, 4 or 10 for
the rifle).  Should these be used instead of the standard 5 listed in the
Players' Manual.

Second, if multiple targets are available, and you hit the primary target,
are the adjacent targets hit automatically or must you reroll for each?

Third, if you are in auto-fire mode and there is only a single target,
is he hit by all the auto-fire rounds?  If not, how many hit?  Do you
roll a separate attack for each round?  Are there any die modifiers
(positive or negative) for successive rounds?

None of these things are covered in the combat rules and they seem to
represent a major oversight, considering how many of the weapons have
auto-fire capability.

My initial reaction to these omissions is as follows:

First, have 2 different versions of the Gauss Rifle, a TL-11 and a TL-12.
The TL-11 version has a PV of 8, and the TL-12 version has a PV of 10.
All other stats. remain unchanged.

Regarding auto-fire: if a weapon has a specified fire rate, use it.
Otherwise, use the 5/rnd. rule.  Also, roll a separate attack for each
round, but if the first round hits, add +4 to the subsequent rolls to
reflect that the initial aimpoint was 'on target'.  Apply this bonus
only to Low Recoil weapons.  Medium Recoil weapons are not as controllable.

How do you deal with this sort of thing?

Later,

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
        [address removed]

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#1207 Re: Wimpy Gauss Weapons

In "(1196) Wimpy Gauss Weapons" "Mark F. Cook" [email removed] writes:

> one of my more experienced players voiced a loud objection to the numbers
> given by GDW for weapon penetration in the Players manual.  When the player
> in question discovered that the Gauss Rifles (TL 13) aboard their starship
> couldn't penetrate Battle Dress or Combat Armor from the same tech. level,
> he pointed out that this would be like sending soldiers into battle with
> flak jackets, and arming them with weapons that couldn't kill an enemy
> wearing the SAME flak jackets.
>
> He has a point.

   A TL-12 gaussrifle will penetrate (low penetration) TL 10 to 13 combat armor
and TL 13 battledress if pinpoint location is used.
   This is somewhat like the situation before the advent of automatic weapons
where a soldier have to take careful aim in order to accomplish anything.
   Even versus TL-14+ armours it will do the minimum damage based on the degree
of exceptional success. (But that would be true even of a sawed-off shotgun vs
TL-15 battledress :-/

   By this numbers, it would seem that the the Gauss-rifle is only used as a
frontline standard infantry weapon at level 13 (Ye olde 'Mercenary' says that
at TL-12 it's only used as a sniper-rifle). And that it is superceeded by
energyweapons at higher techlevels.

> The gauss rifle in particular has been significantly watered
> down from it's original descriptions in Classic Traveller (Mercenary) and
> Azhanti High Lightning.  Does this mean that gauss rifles are passe as battle-
> field weapons?

   I think that the greatest bugs in the data for the Gaussrifle in the MegaT is
the fact that it's difficulty profile is listed as 'Rifle' when, according to
the description in the Imperial Encyclopedia it should have a diff as 'Rifle**'
(ie Gyrostabilized Rifle with Scope). With this modification, it is a ok
weapon if one takes advantage of pinpoint and remembers that the vast majority
of users of a gaussrifle has +2 to the task (+1 for Skill-1 & +1 for Dex 5+).
(Yes, I know about the major bug in the pinpoint-rules :-(


   For military applications, however, there is a nice solution to the problem.
(But it is probably to heavy for players to run around with). The RAM auto
grenade launcers (high TL) have a pentetration of around 36 for HEAP, thats
high penetration against battledress-15!
   Since weapons like this (The russian 'Plamya' 30mm auto-GL) can be used for
direct fire today (Terra TL-8 :-), I see no reason for restricting any of the
weapons on the 'Grenade Launcher' list of the Players Manual to Indirect fire.
Especially since RAM grenades are rocket assisted and thus have a much flatter
trajectory than 'ordinary' grenade-launchers grenades (that are more like the
ones that are used in the M203 (the big black tube under the barrel on some
M16's))
   But indirect fire gives a longer range, so the method that I have used is
allowing direct fire as 'Rifle' whith a maximum range *one range less* than the
indirect fire's max range.
   And sooner or later, someone is bound to get the idea to mount grav-
compensators on a RAM Auto GL to be able to run around and play rambo with the
piece...
   The automatic fire feature of a RAM Auto GL will give it an advantage, even
over a plasma or fusion weapon, at least as long as it has ammo...

And, best of all:
   The weight if it will keep the players from using it :-)

> First, some weapons (i.e. Gauss Rifle and Pistol) have specific auto-fire
> numbers given in the Imperial Encyclopedia (4 for the pistol, 4 or 10 for
> the rifle).  Should these be used instead of the standard 5 listed in the
> Players' Manual.

I use the Encyclopedia figures.

> Second, if multiple targets are available, and you hit the primary target,
> are the adjacent targets hit automatically or must you reroll for each?

Reroll for each.

> Third, if you are in auto-fire mode and there is only a single target,
> is he hit by all the auto-fire rounds?

Probably not, especially since the firer don't controll where these rounds will
hit. They are just extra rounds that flies 'in the general direction' of the
primary target.

> First, have 2 different versions of the Gauss Rifle, a TL-11 and a TL-12.
> The TL-11 version has a PV of 8, and the TL-12 version has a PV of 10.
> All other stats. remain unchanged.

Short Discussion on Armor Penetration:
[Oh no! He's gonna apply pseudo-real-life physics on Traveller! Stop him! ]

   By using several pieces of data in a way that they not were intended to be
used :-) I arrive at the conclution that Penetration 7 is equivalent of being
able to penetrate 1.75 cm of armor plate steel. Penetration 8 and 10 are
equivalent of 2 and 2.5 cm ditto. (I got here by using rule 5B in TD#15,
'Radiation Exposure and Treatment' that is about thickness of armour)
   A gaussrifle fires it's ammo at (i think) 1km/s. Maximum possible penetration
from a kinetic round is achieved when the speed of the round exceeds the speed
if sound in the material that the round is made of (4km/s to 6km/s, I think)
   As a quick rule of thumb, I'd say that the penetration (in cm) goes up by
1.5 every time the speed of the round is doubled (up to max 6km/s).
(I got this figure from a guy who have worked with tank weapons, but he
 warned that it was very approximate.)
   This would give a 2.63 cm penetration if the round was fired with 2km/s
instead of with 1km/s. 2.63 cm equals penetration 10.
   The kinetic energy of the round, and the energy needed to accelerated, would
double twice, to 4 times the original amount.

   Summary: having a gaussrifle with a penetration of 10 is Ok, but it would
probably be heavier that a standard gaussrifle.

   (I checked this against the VRF Gauss Gun  (that fires ordinary gauss-rounds
but with 4km/s, and has penetration 20 (5.95 cm armor plate steel) and that
gives a factor of 1.85 every time the speed of the round is doubled. The
'true' value is probably somewhere around 1.7 - 1.9 instead of 1.5)

Disclaimer: The author is not responsible for characters killed as a result
of the application of, or errors in, the suggestions above :-)

- -bertil-
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Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: [email removed]
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#1227 Re: Wimpy Gauss Weapons

Mark F. Cook writes:
>							      When the player
> in question discovered that the Gauss Rifles (TL 13) aboard their starship
> couldn't penetrate Battle Dress or Combat Armor from the same tech. level,
> he pointed out that this would be like sending soldiers into battle with
> flak jackets, and arming them with weapons that couldn't kill an enemy
> wearing the SAME flak jackets.

> <Penetration tables deleted to save space>

>		  The gauss rifle in particular has been significantly watered
> down from it's original descriptions in Classic Traveller (Mercenary) and
> Azhanti High Lightning.  Does this mean that gauss rifles are passe as battle-
> field weapons?

In Mercenary and Classic Traveller, the to-hit and penetration rolls were
combined.  The gauss rifle's rate of fire was what made it so lethal, not its
penetration.  I don't know the figures for Azhanti High Lightning, but the
similar Striker system used the same figures as MegaTraveller.

Perhaps the combat armour was developed later in TL12 than gauss rifles, as a
defence against them?  Or maybe the gauss rifle is for use against less
armoured targets, e.g. civilian criminals, or low-tech societies you want to
conquer; and against serious opposition, you use laser rifles.

I still think that either the gauss weapons fire high velocity, i.e. supersonic
rounds, in which case they aren't silent except in vacuum or near vacuum; or
they are silent, therefore subsonic, therefore should have even lower
penetration values.  Even present day pistols fire bullets which move faster
than sound; silencers have to slow down the bullets, which is why silenced
weapons aren't as powerful - and why low-powered, subsonic weapons are more
easily silenced.  Gauss weapons could be fitted with a switch controlling the
current into the coils, so you could have a choice.

Actually, it's probably down to game balance again.  If a weapon with the
penetration to breach high-tech battledress and high rate of fire appears,
all the munchkins will trade in their PGMP's for such devices.  You either
get high penetration, and need the skill to use it; or you get lower
penetration, but it's easier to hit things.

> This brings us to the next topic: AUTOMATIC WEAPON FIRE.
>
> First, some weapons (i.e. Gauss Rifle and Pistol) have specific auto-fire
> numbers given in the Imperial Encyclopedia (4 for the pistol, 4 or 10 for
> the rifle).  Should these be used instead of the standard 5 listed in the
> Players' Manual.

Yes.  IMHO, of course!  Mind you, I graduated on Striker, where all weapons
had their individual DEX and autofire modifiers anyway.

> Second, if multiple targets are available, and you hit the primary target,
> are the adjacent targets hit automatically or must you reroll for each?

The Striker system was, for every 2 by which your roll exceeded the required
number, you hit an extra target.  My system was, reroll for each, with a DM
of -2 for the second target, -4 for the third, etc.

> Third, if you are in auto-fire mode and there is only a single target,
> is he hit by all the auto-fire rounds?  If not, how many hit?  Do you
> roll a separate attack for each round?  Are there any die modifiers
> (positive or negative) for successive rounds?

The Striker system was, you chose the size of group you were firing at.  If you
got multiple hits, they were divided evenly among the target group.  If you
were only firing at one individual, he got the lot.  My system was, the
second, third and other targets could be the same as the first one.  The -2, -4
modifiers still applied though.  So, for a burst of 4 rounds, I could fire two
shots at the main target (1), one at the guy on his left (2), and one at the
guy on his right (3).  The first shot at target 1 is unmodified; the second
shot at target 1 gets a DM of -2; the shot at target 2 is at -4; the shot at
target 3 is -6.  Add on appropriate autofire, skill and DEX modifiers as well.

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