Can this universe be saved?

A thread of 3 messages, 5 June 1988 to 30 June 1988, in the order they were sent.

#138 Can this universe be saved?

Long time ago when GDW started publishing their support material
for Traveller, it was a rather interesting world they portrayed.
The Spinward Marches was a rough and ready frontier, where a man
had to rely on himself. Sure, there were a few high-population
worlds where you could relax and have city-type adventures, but in
the low-pop. systems  -  The Outback, as it were  -  you were on
your own; the navy had a few Kinunir and Gazelle class starships,
but mostly you had only your own wit and skills to pit againt evil
pirates and whatnot. There were a lot of cracks for these pirates
and other malcontents to hide in, and a looseness about the whole
setup that allowed PCs plenty of scope to right (or commit) wrongs,
explore near-empty star systems and generally have a good time.

Then "Azhanti High Lightning" and later "Fighting Ships" told us
about the juggernauts of the Imperial fleet: 60.000 T ships by
the gross, 100 and 200.000 T ships by (at least) the dozen. Why,
then, don't they buy one less dreadnaught and enough Kinunirs
to put a couple in each starsystem, thus ending piracy forever?
Later "Trillion Credit Squadron" told about how to finance the
fleet and "Fifth Frontier War" showed more than a 100 trillion
credit squadrons in the sector (propably many more, since the
map only shows some of the sector, and some ships presumably
are held back to protect the rimward part of it). And on top of
this comes the civillian shipping. With the assumption that
goods must be moved around to pay for all theese warships, I
once calculated the trade tonnage in Glisten subsector to
48 *million* tons! And Glisten is a comparativly low-population
subsector...

It's those high-population worlds that does it. Look at Mora, a
world with 10 billion people. According to "Trillion..." each
contributes Cr 500 per year to the naval budget. That's Cr
5.000.000.000.000 (five *trillions*). Naval investments are
equal to 10 times the yearly budget; so Mora alone can finance
*fifty* squadrons. Of course, some of that will have to be used
on local planetary defenses. Anybody want to calculate the
number of meson cannons you can buy for a third of fifty
trillion credit?

And dare I mention that there are three more high-population worlds
with a total population of thirty billion in Mora subsector ?

If we use the rules in "Striker" we get a slightly smaller figure:
a yearly budget of "only" 3,08 trillion Cr. Of this, a mere 30% goes
to the Imperium (and how many meson guns can Mora get for the
remaining 70%?), giving us a paltry 9 trillion credit squadrons
with a little bit left over. But this is only after a long
period of peace, where the military budget is 1% of the gross
national product. In times of war that figure can be raised to
15 times that or 45+ squadrons.

Can this universe be saved?

I have some requirements of my Traveller campaign. Mostly they
are concerned with keeping things reasonably close to the
original concepts:

1) Starships are expensive, but not totally beyond the means of
   a determined, adventuresome and lucky group.

2) Some worlds has a reasonably high volume of traffic; the navy
   are present here and piracy, if not entirely impossible,
   depends on stealth and audacity, rather than brute force. But
   others are small out-of-the-way frontier planets where anything
   can happen  -  and usually does (da-da-da-DAH!)

3) The size of and demands on the navy makes it impractical to
   maintain navy ships in the small star-systems. The navy con-
   centrates on the important worlds and make do with irregular
   patrol sweeps at the others.

I have some ideas for patches, but I would like to hear your
reactions before I say more. Am I talking sense? Or through my
hat? Do you have any ideas or suggestions?

   Hans Rancke, University of Copenhagen
          ..[email removed]

- --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

- - I hate it when people call me paranoid.
  It makes me feel persecuted.

#141 Re: Can this universe be saved?

>Later "Trillion Credit Squadron" told about how to finance the
>fleet and "Fifth Frontier War" showed more than a 100 trillion
>credit squadrons in the sector (propably many more, since the
>map only shows some of the sector, and some ships presumably
>are held back to protect the rimward part of it).

	I agree that there were "too many" ships involved in the war.
	I can only assume this is because other portions of the
	Imperium (and its opposition) are supporting this front, and
	that it must be considered "key" because of four major races
	holding it in contention (Zhodane, Imperium, Aslan, and Vargar)
	as a stepping stone for greater advancement in the region.


>		[...]
>
>It's those high-population worlds that does it. Look at Mora, a
>world with 10 billion people. According to "Trillion..." each
>contributes Cr 500 per year to the naval budget. That's Cr
>5.000.000.000.000 (five *trillions*).
>		[...]
>
>If we use the rules in "Striker" we get a slightly smaller figure:
>a yearly budget of "only" 3,08 trillion Cr. Of this, a mere 30% goes
>to the Imperium (and how many meson guns can Mora get for the
>remaining 70%?), giving us a paltry 9 trillion credit squadrons
>with a little bit left over.
>		[...]
>Can this universe be saved?

	If I remember (and I don't have the books with me), population
	is the only thing used as a modifier for GPP.  I was a little
	dissatisfied, because looking at our world, it is also clear
	that tech level, government type, and law level play major
	roles in determining per capita income, GPP, and military
	spending.

	A tech level 3 world is going to have a smaller GPP than a
	comparable tech level 10 world.  And, because it is going to
	spend more time worrying about feeding and sheltering its
	people, a smaller percentage of its GPP is going to be
	available to be skimmed off by the Imperial, Sector, and
	Subsector defenses.  (There's NO WAY a country like Afganistan,
	whose per capita income is $400 odd dollars,  can support a tax
	of $500 a head.)

	Similarly (and I'll try not to get into any political debates),
	certain governments promote production better than others.
	Other governments (notably captive governments) are likely to
	produce less.

	Law level should also be used a a modifier.  A very high law
	level means a higher spending percentage by the military.  A
	very low law level means a lower spending percentage.

	Another thing that both rule sets seem to overlook is that the
	highest cost incurred by the military (and by most large
	endeavors), is personell.  A fleet can't be run without trained
	people (ah, er, well, even robots cost money and maintenance),
	and trained people imply salaries, trainers, support personell,
	etc.  I'd *guess* anywhere from a very efficient wartime 10
	times crew salaries to a top heavy 25+ times crew salaries
	during peace time (you could also say 1/5 to 1/20 of the budget
	is actually used on ships).  If the entire military budget of
	Moria is used on hardware, you may indeed have 50 squadrons,
	but if no one is there to use or maintain them, a scout ship
	with a laser could disable them all.

	I've played a little with all of the above as modifiers, and
	while I haven't done the research to make it "right", things do
	seem to look "better".

		-Rob.

#149 Can this universe be saved?

>	I agree that there were "too many" ships involved in the war.
>	I can only assume this is because other portions of the
>	Imperium (and its opposition) are supporting this front, and
>	that it must be considered "key" because of four major races
>	holding it in contention (Zhodane, Imperium, Aslan, and Vargar)
>	as a stepping stone for greater advancement in the region.

Imperial naval forces at the start of the war consisted of 2 battle squadrons,
6 cruiser squadrons and 1 assault squadron, plus 16 assorted colonial
squadrons of varying type and quality. (From "Fifth Frontier War" Imperial
Order of Battle.) Many of the colonial squadrons were cruiser squadrons with
0 attack factor, which I take to mean they were the <1000 ton patrol cruisers
of various forms. Some are less powerful than scout squadrons! Zhodani forces
were much larger, which isn't surprising as they were attacking, and had
brought up their forces from all over the Consulate. When the Imperium did
likewise (reinforcements), they got a lot more. Incidentally, the Aslan weren't
involved unless you assume some of the mercenary units are Aslan. And where did
the TL16 battalion come from?

>		[...]
>	If I remember (and I don't have the books with me), population
>	is the only thing used as a modifier for GPP.  I was a little
>	dissatisfied, because looking at our world, it is also clear
>	that tech level, government type, and law level play major
>	roles in determining per capita income, GPP, and military
>	spending.

I do have the books here - Striker Book 2 (p.38) and Trillion Credit Squadron
(p. 31).
Striker: GNP=Pop. * Base GNP * trade class modifier
Base GNP comes from a table based on TL, which works out as 2000*(TL-4).
Trade class modifiers are: Rich 1.6; Industrial 1.4; Agric.  1.2
			   Poor 0.8; Non-ind.   0.8; Non-Ag. 0.8
Military budget=GNP * (3% normally; varies between 1% and 15%)

T.C.S.: Naval tax = 500 * Govt. modifier * population

Both systems have tables for converting local currency to Imperial currency,
based on TL and starport type. The tables are not the same!

>	A tech level 3 world is going to have a smaller GPP than a
>	comparable tech level 10 world.  And, because it is going to
>	spend more time worrying about feeding and sheltering its
>	people, a smaller percentage of its GPP is going to be
>	available to be skimmed off by the Imperial, Sector, and
>	Subsector defenses.
>...
>	Similarly (and I'll try not to get into any political debates),
>	certain governments promote production better than others.

So, use the Striker system, but with the T.C.S. government modifiers.

>	Law level should also be used a a modifier.  A very high law
>	level means a higher spending percentage by the military.  A
>	very low law level means a lower spending percentage.

Not necessarily. Efate/Regina has law level 0, but "Fifth Frontier War" gives
it a battle squadron, a cruiser, and a large army.

>	Another thing that both rule sets seem to overlook is that the
>	highest cost incurred by the military (and by most large
>	endeavors), is personell.

Agreed. And in T.C.S., what about starports? Can one upgrade them? For how
much?


 "Keyboard? Tis quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  [email removed]
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   [email removed]