Planetary Invasions Revisited

A thread of 2 messages, 9 July 1991 to 11 July 1991, in the order they were sent.

#2555 Planetary Invasions Revisited

I'm compiling the discussions on this topic, which have all been well thought
out and interesting so far.  Permit me to retract my comments regarding
guerilla warfare as insufficiently considered, for the moment, and allow me
to make a few clarifications about some of the other implicit assumptions in
the narrative I posted:

Attacker's Superiority:  A numerical and/or 1-2 level technological superiority
on the part of the attacker was assumed, since I was more interested in
discussing the mechanics of "ground" combat (obviously a bad name for a
primarily air/near orbit battle) than I was in investigating fleet combat.
Thus the attacker can be beaten by the system's defenders early on, before
they ever get to the mainworld, if conditions are right (e.g. the defender has
numerical or tech level superiority, the defender concentrates all of his
forces instead of guarding all gas giants, whatever.)  We don't have to
restrict discussion to what happens when the attacker wins the initial
space battle, but it won't shed any more light on the invasion phase.

Invasion vs. Bombardment: We are all agreed that you would only invade to
capture, not to destroy, correct?  Some interesting bombardment techniques
have been mentioned, but they are also divergent.

Planetary Defense Meson Guns:  The prospect of espionage seems to me to make
concealment difficult (perhaps not impossible), but how does anyone think the
Imperium feels about these guns?  Would they allow a planetary government to
build them as part of a secret program, or would they require the locations to
be on file somewhere in case the planet should rebel?  (That could make an
interesting adventure, by the way, whether to penetrate a regional database to
look for data prior to an invasion, or to try to erase the data from a center
in enemy hands.)  If the defending meson gun network cannot be located and it
is extremely capably, the invasion may end at that point.  An attacker _might_
be able to make some headway by flooding the planet with 'expendable' craft
and staying as mixed as possible with the defenders.

Dogfight Phase:  I think that this would be the phase of decision, and that
it would be quite possible for the defender to win here.  I phrased my
suggestion the other way, so I could offer an opinion on the 'mop up'.  I
do think that it would make more sense for the defender to put everything that
will fly into the air as early as possible, because I think that the pace
of operations will make any imbalance grow rapidly.   If we had just seen a
European War instead of the Gulf War, I don't see the side with the inferior
air force trying to hide it, since it will be eroded piecemeal without being
able to shoot back.  That erosion may be slow, but it would happen, and the
attacker would have the advantage. Thus, even if the defenders are outnumbered,
it would probably be better to fight at odds of 1-3 than to save half your
forces and fight at odds of 1-6 twice.

Mop-Up:  Are we agreed that infantry would only be used for 'low intensity'
portions of the operations? And that ground forces would be devastatingly
outmaneuevered?  (Making the TL12-13 tracked tanks in 101 Vehicles a little
silly...)

Occupation: Ruling a hostile population can only be done as long as that
population remains willing to be ruled.  If every person on the planet agreed
that it would be better to die than to live under Emperor X, then Emperor X
made a mistake in invading that planet because it will probably result in a
net loss of resources for him.  An incorrect assessment of the situation might
cause such an invasion to occur anyway.

Black Globes:  What happens if you turn a black globe on while sitting on a
planet's surface?

This has been a good discussion so far...

Hope you are all having fun.

Rob Dean

#2575 Re: Planetary Invasions Revisited

> From: "Robert S. Dean" [email removed]
> Subject: (2555)  Planetary Invasions Revisited
>
> Invasion vs. Bombardment: We are all agreed that you would only invade to
> capture, not to destroy, correct?  Some interesting bombardment techniques
> have been mentioned, but they are also divergent.

  If I'm allowed to diverge some more: The best method I've heard of would
be to take a random asteroid, install jump and manuever drives on it, let it
accelerate to some awful velocity and program it for a jump to the 100 diameter
border of an enemy planet....
  It depends however on if a jump conserves the movement, and movement relative
to what, but we've already had that discussion once:)
  [Originally it comes from someone on rec.games.frp]

> Planetary Defense Meson Guns:  The prospect of espionage seems to me to make
> concealment difficult (perhaps not impossible), but how does anyone think the
> Imperium feels about these guns? Would they allow a planetary government to
> build them as part of a secret program, or would they require the locations to
> be on file somewhere in case the planet should rebel?

  I've seen something called the 'Meson Gun Rebellion' mentioned in some old
traveller papers, which might be a clue that this is a hotly contested question.

> Dogfight Phase:  I think that this would be the phase of decision, and that
> it would be quite possible for the defender to win here.  I phrased my
> suggestion the other way, so I could offer an opinion on the 'mop up'.  I
> do think that it would make more sense for the defender to put everything that
> will fly into the air as early as possible, because I think that the pace
> of operations will make any imbalance grow rapidly.

  It depends on if we are using modern air-war as the analogy or if we compare
the orbiting ships to modern artillery, and the grav-crafts to modern ground
forces. It makes sense for the defender to stay under cover as long as the
attacker is out of range of their weapons. I also have my doubts about the
effectiveness of small grav-crafts when used against naval vessels. Pounding on
the big ships are the tasks of the SDBs, the meson pits and the other space
defence installations. The purpose of the grav-crafts and other small crafts
is to engage the attackers small crafts and grav-crafts when they appear in the
atmosphere.

  As for why the attacker would risk his small crafts before the defender is
totally neutralized, I can only offer two reasons:

  o  They would want the war over with within a resonable time-frame (To
     begin invading the next world presumably)

  o  It is hard to determine *if* the defender is neutralized unless he is
     forced to react to something the attacker does.

> Mop-Up:  Are we agreed that infantry would only be used for 'low intensity'
> portions of the operations? And that ground forces would be devastatingly
> outmaneuevered?  (Making the TL12-13 tracked tanks in 101 Vehicles a little
> silly...)

  Hmm, I tend to include grav-tanks and lift infantry in 'ground forces'. If we
assume that it is easier to aquire a target in free air than one hugging the
ground it would be possible to have something looking like ground combat:
Both the attackers and the defenders grav forces can't use their entire
potential because if they ventured too high, they would be blown away. The
defender by the attackers orbiting ships, and the attacker by the defenders
space defence lasers installed on every roof.
  [Gives a whole new dimension to 'Home defence':)]

> Black Globes:  What happens if you turn a black globe on while sitting on a
> planet's surface?

  I think that the globe would cut out a half-hemisphere below the generator,
not destroying it, but cutting all drainage pipes, power lines etc. This would
not be an issue if it was done in the wilderness.
  Some messages echoed from GEnie about BG's suggested another effect: That the
globe would begin to absorb kinetic energy from the surrounding molecules of
air or whatever, thereby absorbing heat from the environment until the sinks
are overloaded.
  Maybe there would become an insulating layer of frozen air around the globe
that slows this process, does anyone know the insulating properties of ice
made of oxygen and nitrogene?

> Rob Dean

- - -bertil-
- - --
"Some people almost never think. They just reshuffle their prejudices."