Becoming quite obtuse and wayward

A thread of 2 messages, 4 October 1991 to 5 October 1991, in the order they were sent.

#2971 Becoming quite obtuse and wayward

hi,

Sorry about the totally unrelated subject, I'll try to control myself
more in the future!


Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away, Jack Dietz says:
>        As I see it, the increase in development cost of a simulator
>on multiple systems is neglegible compared with the initial
>development cost if the writers use almost any high level language,
>although C is probably best for this (no flames please -- it's just
>that almost anything will compile single-threading K&R).  What this
>implies is that if you ignore GUIs and make a text-only application
>...

I'll add a quick comment here since I used to program Macs for a living.
Writing a text only application isn't really good enough for machines which
are based strongly around a GUI.  Users (the people who really count) get
used to the picture interface and get very upset when they lose this.  A
text only program is very unlikely to sell for a Mac (programmer's utilities
are an exception to this, but everybody knows programmers are different).
I suspect, that the other window based systems would require more than a
bare text interface to sell.  There is a massive amount of effort required
to add windowing and menus to a text based program in an effective manner,
it is nearly always better to re-write the program pretty much from
scratch and get things right.  There have been several companies that
produced a naive conversion of an existing program and got bitten (there
are some exceptions: infocom, three-sixty.  The product they produced
was of top quality anyway).

[ Gee, my quick comments are getting longer and longer the closer my thesis
  deadline approaches. ]


>         I simply don't see number of platforms as a drawback -- for
>what you have in mind it wouln't be.

You have also got to support all these different platforms.  My ship design
program is an example of a simple, reasonably well written program.  It compiled
without problems on several versions of Unix, and on the Mac.  It died on
the Amiga (did you ever get it working richard?, are you even reading this ;-)


>        I think that there are some small game companies out there
>that would write something like that and sell it as a package.  With
>RPGs currently the cost of simple computer games a game bundled with
>bookkeeping software should be marketable in the high end.  If they
>treat it as 'value added' instead of 'gimmick' it should do well in
>the gamers' market.  And if size is a problem, the die-hard
>roleplayer could pick up the HP 55LX pocket PC...

It is a HP95 isn't it?  (assuming that you mean the IBM compatable handheld).
My personaly preference is for the HP48SX, but then I own one :-)

Is the sales quantity going to offset to software development costs?
Writing RPG-aid software is a nasty buisness (ask just about anybody who
has tried to computerise an existing part of any system), and you are
likely to require a non-trivial hardware platform to do anything useful
(which would bring it out of the gimmick classification).  All this is
going to increase the cost of the package.  I am not saying that it isn't
possible, just that I cannot see anything like this working in the near
future (unless one of us starts writing lots of code quickly ;-)  I would
be unhesitant to claim that it would be a VERY high risk venture.

Of course, you could include the die rolling computer to save having to
roll 2000d6 during large scale combat.  That rates as a useless gimmick
in my book.

Any chance of a TDR or CAT sub-group on portable computerised game assistant
packages?
[ No really it was a sarcastic comment, ....... I really didn't mean it,
......... no please don't shoo[BANG] ....... Thud. ]





						Pauli da insane

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#2976 Re: (2971) & (2972) Graphical Interface

MacGyver writes:
> 	Well, if the program is a text-only thing even when it's
> ported to things like Mac. I for one, wouldn't buy it. GUI is what
> attracts a lot of people to Mac. And if they are gamer and use Mac
> as well, it's doubtful they would buy a text-only program.
And Paul Dale writes:
>                                There have been several companies that
> produced a naive conversion of an existing program and got bitten (there
> are some exceptions: infocom, three-sixty.  The product they produced
> was of top quality anyway).

       I had thought of compatability of the interface as paramount.
With few exceptions, every gaming group meets in different places
and different times.  If you're going to sell something like this,
the referee must be able to jump into the saddle on any computer,
immediately.
        Unless you're selling a pocket computer with the package
(probably increasing the cost by a factor of 4-10), it has to run
the same way on any system the referee is going to use.  A Mac user
has to be able to take a 1.44MB floppy, copy over the files into IBM
format and be set.  The data files have to be the same and the
interface has to be the same.  Because the lowest-common-denominator
machine these days is a ten-year-old IBM PC with a VT52 terminal on
top (i'm exaggerating for effect) it must use a keyboard interface
and ASCII graphics only.
        This may jaundice the first impression a Mac/Amiga/NeXT user
gets of the package, but as I see it if a GUI is not always
avaliable its use should be _discouraged_.  I have never seen a
program that has the same effects in any two graphical operating
systems, even when the programmers have gone to great lengths to
make the two clones.  Now, sure, the user will be used to it in a
half hour, but you've just wasted a half-hour, probably bogging down
the first combat that takes place and making everyone uneasy about
depending on your program.  Furthermore, someone who learns how to
use the program with a mouse will probably be lost without one,
while when the reverse happens the user is going to be confused.
        I think 'vi' is a good example.  It's ten years old and has an
interface that at best is a trial to learn.  Yet I use it because
it's available everywhere -- on X terminals at the school, modemming
in from my dorm room, on my PC.  I've even seen a version on the
Mac.  Now, it doesn't quite fit in in any of these graphical
environments, but it gets used because it doesn't have to be
relearned.  Anyone who knows 'vi' can be editing files in fifteen
seconds.  That is the kind of program I think would be most useful.
        Something like this that is going to be not only used on
different platforms but used by the same people at unexpected times
on different platforms has got to be as definite as possible.  I'm
afraid GUI's haven't gotten to the point where they are as
ubiquitous as text-based systems, and I'm hesitant about
recommending an enterprising young programmer to invest four times
the programming effort in order to make a program that is easier to
learn but harder to unlearn.
- --
Wyszkowski's Second Law:           | Jack Dietz ([email removed])
  Anything can be made to work if  | Computer Engineer in Training
  you fiddle with it long enough.  | Official Yahoo of a Virtual UCSD