Re: Frictionless Surfaces

A thread of 6 messages, 17 April 1992 to 21 April 1992, in the order they were sent.

#3966 Re: Frictionless Surfaces

>I would say that any particular material would have a constant coefficient of
>friction, with perhaps, slight variations due to different alloying materials
>and manufacturing techniques used.  However, it should be possible to make new

One thing that you may want to note is that the coefficient of friction
is a property of two substances sliding on each other, so wood on ice
has a very different coefficient of friction from wood on sandpaper.

>     up to TL  8 normal
		  ^^^^^^ What does "normal" mean?
>           TL  9 20% Friction Free
....
>           TL 17 99% FF

"Frictionless" means no friction. Zero.  I think you're thinking of
smaller and smaller coefficients of friction, and a far more natural way
to list that would be to say the coef. of friction of the slipperiest
substance known decreases by an order of magnitude with each tech level:
ie.  0.001, 0.0001, 0.00001, etc.

I'm curious as to why anyone really cares about improvement in
low-friction substances.  Surely this sort of thing just gets lumped
into "improved engine efficiency", or some such.

>An alternative to frictionless materials is the 'Friction field generator'
>(invented by James Blish in one of his _Cities_in_Flight_ books).  I can't
>remember the exact explanation given (which may have been BS anyway...), but

"May have been..." ?

- -----------------------------

>It is important that you act now.  The bureaucrats already have it in their
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Incidentally, guys, don't make the argument based on "free exchange of
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They're just trying to make you pay more for a piece of equipment that
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Object because modem users should not subsidize the phone companies.

- ------------------------------

>I don't think there will ever be a frictionless material, unless of
>course someone finds a way to make "smooth" molecules, which according
>to our physics, both newtonian and relativistic, is impossible.

Quantum mechanics disagrees.

If you count "zero viscosity" as equivalent to "zero friction",
we know of at least two frictionless substances: Helium-4 at
temperatures below 4 K, and Helium-3 at temperatures below 1.5 K.
(If for some reason you care about the exact temperatures, look them up.
Don't quote me.)  Both substances undergo phase changes to superfluid
states, and develop some distinctly strange properties. And before
anyone says that these temperatures are too cold to be useful, remember
two things: we're talking about working in space, where the ambient
temperature is on this order of magnitude, and that ten years ago,
it was thought that superconductivity could only occur at these
temperatures.

      c.r.

- --
I don't know what's weirder--that you're fighting a stuffed animal, or
that you seem to be losing.		-- Susie

#3968 Re: Frictionless Surfaces

The question about frictionless surfaces came up because of a
science fiction novel I remembered reading (title & author currently
forgotten). The material wasn't used for bearings but plumbing. I
remember the character in the story used a toilet, which was
completely dry, and watched as his excrement slid away.

Besides, it sounded like a good topic to discuss! It's always
interesting reading science fiction and applying it to the game. :-)

Mike

#3972 Re: (3968) Re: Frictionless Surfaces

[Resent to [email removed], the correct address - James]

> The question about frictionless surfaces came up because of a
> science fiction novel I remembered reading (title & author currently
> forgotten). The material wasn't used for bearings but plumbing. I
> remember the character in the story used a toilet, which was
> completely dry, and watched as his excrement slid away.
>
> Besides, it sounded like a good topic to discuss! It's always
> interesting reading science fiction and applying it to the game. :-)
>
> Mike

I remember something similar from "David Starr, Space Ranger", space
opera by Isaac Asimov.  Much of the science is somewhat drechlich,
but he pointed out in several cases that surfaces without surface
tension (probably not actually frictionless) would save water on
Mars, where every drop is precious.

Is that what you were thinking of?

Jack
- --
Jack Dietz              Suit, Heated: See Heatsuit.
// [email removed]        -- Megatraveller Imperial Encyclopedia

#3969 Frictionless Toilets (Re: TML biweekly Msg 3968 V26#10)

[email removed] (Michael A. Surman) writes:
> The question about frictionless surfaces came up because of a
> science fiction novel I remembered reading (title & author currently
> forgotten). The material wasn't used for bearings but plumbing. I
> remember the character in the story used a toilet, which was
> completely dry, and watched as his excrement slid away.

Give the (deservedly) anonymous author a no-prize for a clearer
understanding of low-friction technology than toilet
technology.  The principal reason toilets have water in them is
to prevent odors escaping.  Not only is the brown stuff
submerged in water during use but, much more importantly,
Crapper's celebrated invention is designed so that there is
always a water barrier between the user and the main sewer
line.  Without this barrier, one's home would soon begin to
smell like a sewer.  The flushing action is designed mainly to
carry offensive materials through the barrier.  Consider the
predecessor of the flush toilet, in which a *very* low
coefficient of friction exists between the target material and
the transport on the way to the final disposal destination
:-).  Not something I'd want in my home.

					Bart Massey
					[email removed]

"Build a better toilet, and the world will stand in line outside
your door with legs crossed."

#3971 (3968) Re: Frictionless Surfaces

> The question about frictionless surfaces came up because of a
> science fiction novel I remembered reading (title & author currently
> forgotten). The material wasn't used for bearings but plumbing. I
> remember the character in the story used a toilet, which was
> completely dry, and watched as his excrement slid away.

I think this was "A World Out of Time" by Larry Niven.  An excellent
book, highly recommended.  Try to imagine the earth after a million
years or so, now a satellite of Jupiter.

	-jan-
- --
        Jan L. Peterson		Network Systems Manager
EMail:  [email removed]
Mail:   [address removed]
Phone:  [phone removed]		FAX:  [phone removed]

#3975 Re: Frictionless Surfaces

Bart Massey writes:
>Give the (deservedly) anonymous author a no-prize for a clearer
>understanding of low-friction technology than toilet
>technology.  The principal reason toilets have water in them is
>to prevent odors escaping.  Not only is the brown stuff
>...

No doubt about it! But I imagine if a society is advanced enough
to create a frictionless surface it also has the means to keep
odors under control. Then again, I didn't say it was a good idea
only an interesting one! :-)

As to the particular novel, A World Out of Time by Niven and
David Starr, Space Ranger by Asimov were mentioned. I was thinking
about Childhoods End by Asimov. Now, I'll have to search my library
and find it!

Mike