World Composition and TNE

A thread of 2 messages, 20 November 1992 to 21 November 1992, in the order they were sent.

#4969 World Composition and TNE

Hi again,

Well, I seem to have got some response to my posting...

Catie Helm([email removed]) writes:
> Now about Corran's proposed UPP scale, based mostly on planetary
> composition, which translated to rocks, solid cores, molten cores,
> etc.

I actually stole these classifications from the World Builders'
Handbook by DGP, in a vague attempt to fit in with some previously
published information. The World Builders' Handbook basically uses
these to split planets up into density categories:
Icy body = 0.18 to 0.48 earths
Rocky Body = 0.50 to 0.80 earths
Molten Core = 0.82 to 1.12 earths
Heavy Core = 1.10 to 2.25 earths

OK, let's try discarding the idea of whether or not the core is molten
or not, and just stick with categories such as "Icy body", and three
grades of Rocky bodies: "Light", "Medium" and "Heavy". I'm pretty sure
it doesn't matter to the average player whether or not the core is
currently molten. Actually I'll take that back - molten cores and so
forth would probably affect the existence of magnetic fields,
radiation belts, volcanic action (expert opinions welcome :-), so it
probably would affect things. In fact I suppose a "molten core" icy
body could be an icy body with liquid underneath a crust of ice (I
think Europa is thought to be like this?). Nevertheless gravity and
atmosphere are far more fundamental...

One thing I'm unsure about is where a moon like Io fits into the
scheme of things: it's certainly not icy, does it have a rocky core?
what's it's density? Should the "icy body" category contain strange
bodies like Io?

OK, so now we can work out the approximate atmospheric pressure:
assume that icy bodies have a density of 1/3 of that of earth (an
over-estimate?), light rocky bodies have a density of 2/3, medium
rocky bodies have a density of 1  and heavy rocky bodies have a
density of 4/3. Then the formula is:

density*size/8

(which incidentally is also the surface gravity). In terms of the
original traveller atmosphere densities (vacuum: 0 atm, trace: 0 -
0.09 atm, v. thin: 0.10 - 0.42, thin: 0.43 - 0.70, std 0.71 - 1.49,
dense: 1.50 - 2.49) we have:

                                size
            0/S 1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   A
d   "icy"   vac tr  tr  vt  vt  vt  vt  vt  vt  vt  th
e   light   vac tr  vt  vt  vt  th  th  th  th  st  st
n   medium  vac vt  vt  vt  th  th  st  st  st  st  st
s   heavy   vac vt  vt  th  th  st  st  st  st  de  de

Consequences:
Much fewer worlds with _no_ atmosphere, much more with very thin
atmospheres, fewer worlds with dense atmospheres, and probably fewer
with standard atmospheres. It also gets rid of my original gripe about
small worlds with normal atmospheres.

Problem:
I notice that the Moon (size 2, density light) and mercury (size 3,
density medium) should have very thin atmosphere (Moon: atm pressure
approx 0.16). This seems too high (according to the rules you could
breathe on the moon with the aid of a compressor)... I suspect it is a
problem with the pressure = gravity approximation.

Perhaps larger world sizes should be allowed?

Solution:
Modifiers: If the world is in the inner or habital zones and has a
size of 0,S,1,2,3, then decrease the atm type by one (eg. th -> vt ->
tr -> vac), which solves the problem of Mercury and the Moon.

Any other suggestions, folks?

Right, so then there's only atmospheric composition left, and that can
be summarised into the following categories:
OK to breathe:Standard 02/N2 type mix
Bad news to breathe:Tainted 02/N2 type mix
Really bad news to breathe:Exotic
Wear your protective gear:Irritant, Corrosive, Insidious

Finally there are the weird ones: D (dense, high), E (ellipsoid), F
(thin, low). These are really atmospheric pressure considerations, (in
fact ellipsoid is really a planetary _shape_ consideration). So there
are 2 choices here:

If you want good compatability with the previous traveller system,
then consider the following:

Composition  Density  Atmosphere
     0       Icy      Exotic, Irritant or Corrosive
     1       Icy      Standard
     2       Icy      Tainted
     3       Light    Exotic, Irritant or Corrosive
     4       Light    Tainted
     5       Light    Standard
     6       Medium   Standard
     7       Medium   Tainted
     8       Heavy    Standard
     9       Heavy    Tainted
     A       Medium   Exotic, Irritant or Corrosive
     B       Heavy    Exotic, Irritant or Corrosive
     C       Heavy    Insidious
     D       Heavy    Dense, High
     E       Medium   Ellipsoid*
     F       Light    Thin, Low

* or maybe Insidious if you don't mind incompatibility.

If you need to know whether a given atmosphere is exotic, irritant or
corrosive, then roll 1D: 1-3 Exotic, 4 Irritant, 5-6 Corrosive.

The only real difference here is that 3 goes from very thin to
exotic/corrosive, so concievably a large world could be having its
effective atmosphere type changed from 3 to A or B under the old
system, however the atmosphere density will only change from 3 to 4 or
5.

All in all, I think it should work OK.

Now for the virus story:
Hans Rancke-Madsen [email removed] writes:
>>    The Virus is going to make technological advance extremely
difficult in
>>affected areas, however, so that recovery may well be not possible -
every
>>time that a civilisation gets to TL 7 or so, it will almost surely
start
>>using silicon chips,
>
>What's the bet that someone will develop a non-silicon chip before
the
>Cymberline predator has been on the scene 10 years?

Yes, but you seem to have missed the point: is such a substitute going
to be accessible to a TL7 or 8 world? Indeed I think I mentioned that
I would be surprised if your average TL15 ship's computer used silicon
chips. The point still remains: unless the virus is not much of a
threat, there is not going to be any easy way for a world to develop
to TL9 and get interstellar travel (or if they do, it won't be long
before the virus finds them and eats all their electronics).

>
>>    Realising the military potential of this discovery for the
Domain of
>>Deneb, the development of stutterwarp drive ships are fast-tracked
and the
>>problems with the electronics surmounted by new (and incidentally
Virus-
>>proof) technologies. By the time the Domain of Deneb is threatened
by the
>>Virus a small squadron of fighting ships is ready. This handful of
ships
>>then defeats a Virus Armada coming through Corridor.
>
>> [Deneb then helps]
>>the Aslan Heirate (in exchange for the Ihatei to stop their
attacks),
>
>The ihatei isn't even a real threat without the virus. With the
Aslans
>plagued by the Virus and Deneb controlling virus-free, stutterwarp
ships
>there's only one way the Aslans are going to get any: As loyal
vassals
>of Archduke Norris.

True, you have a valid point here.

Then again, there is probably no way that Deneb could even contemplate
conquest of the Aslan Heirate (especially if they have had major
problems with virus incursions), just like they could not contemplate
annexing the Zhodani. In addition, the Domain seems to be
non-expansionist. I can see that a hard-pressed Deneb might reach some
sort of agreement with the Aslan (after all, the Domain is really only
fighting the ihatei, not the Heirate itself).

Admittedly, in the long run the Heirate is defenseless against Deneb,
but I s'pose that once it is known that stutterwarp is possible, the
Aslan & Zhodani may well develop it fairly rapidly.

- -or-

Maybe the Hivers help out the Aslan.

Or sell the stutterwarp to them after Deneb has defeated the virus...

Any other suggestions?

It's late. I'd better stop this. 8-)

See ya 'round
Corran Webster
[email removed]

#4973 TNE

Corran J. Webster writes:
>Now for the virus story:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen [email removed]writes:
>>[In reply to Corran:]
>>>   The Virus is going to make technological advance extremely difficult
>>>in affected areas, however, so that recovery may well be not possible -
>>>every time that a civilisation gets to TL 7 or so, it will almost
>>>surely start using silicon chips,
>>
>>What's the bet that someone will develop a non-silicon chip before
>>the Cymberline predator has been on the scene 10 years?
>
>Yes, but you seem to have missed the point: is such a substitute going
>to be accessible to a TL7 or 8 world?

Are we talking likelihood or concevability here? I'd certainly accept
it if GDW decreed that no medium-TL substitute for silicon chips is
possible, but it'll be an acceptance based on "what's good for the game"
not on what I consider likely. Remember that there's a huge difference
between "discovery on Earth TL" and true TL. Some time ago I was
watching an interwiev with a research scientist at RISO, the Danish
atomic research center. I _think_ he was talking about bucky-balls,
but I may misremember. In any case it was some brand-new interesting
discovery. And I remember that at one point he said that they were making
these thingamajigs using machines that could haver been build in the
thirties if the knowledge had been there.

The concept that given the need human scientists couldn't come up with
an adequate TL 7 substitute for silicon chips seems to me about as
likely as the flat galaxy bit.

>Indeed I think I mentioned that
>I would be surprised if your average TL15 ship's computer used silicon
>chips. The point still remains: unless the virus is not much of a
>threat, there is not going to be any easy way for a world to develop
>to TL9 and get interstellar travel (or if they do, it won't be long
>before the virus finds them and eats all their electronics).

I disagree. But one could easily imagine that any substitute would be
bulkier and more expensive, so interstellar travel could very well
become uneconomic.

>>>[Deneb then helps]
>>>the Aslan Heirate (in exchange for the Ihatei to stop their
>attacks),
>>
>>The ihatei isn't even a real threat without the virus. With the Aslans
>>plagued by the Virus and Deneb controlling virus-free, stutterwarp ships
>>there's only one way the Aslans are going to get any: As loyal vassals
>>of Archduke Norris.
>
>True, you have a valid point here.
>
>Then again, there is probably no way that Deneb could even contemplate
>conquest of the Aslan Hierate (especially if they have had major
>problems with virus incursions), just like they could not contemplate
>annexing the Zhodani.

No, but they could sure clean up the Aslans' act on their side of the
Great Rift.

>Admittedly, in the long run the Heirate is defenseless against Deneb,
>but I s'pose that once it is known that stutterwarp is possible, the
>Aslan & Zhodani may well develop it fairly rapidly.

That's true enough.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     [email removed]
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir