RE: UWPs revisited

A thread of 4 messages, 12 February 1993 to 15 February 1993, in the order they were sent.

#5186 RE: UWPs revisited

> Again, it is pesky and annoying, and the unmodified system generates
> too many of these pesky and annoying planets to modify by hand. A better
> system is called for (IMHO). Either that, or we can chuck this so-called
> hard-science/reality-based approach and start playing Star Trek.
>
> Or maybe I should just look for another hole to bury myself in. :-)

No, I like what you've done so far.

I'm not greatly involved in system/planet design but I may give you something
to help so...

Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that we've only got one set of generation
rules that are trying to generate everything based on either too many
random variables or restricting ourselves to too few variations.

I can see that you've got 4 things to contend with

    1.  What are the physical characteristics of the planet (iceball whatever).

    2.  What life/society has evolved on this planet without intervention
        by outside star fareing societies?

    3.  What space faring culture has interfaced with this planet/society
        and why?

    4.  How long have 1 and 2 been interacting and has the type of interaction
        changed regularly and how often?


Generate the planet as realisticly as you like.

Try generating items 2 and 3 separately and then merge them together to give
the final society entity.  Initial settings in one will effect settings in
the other and vice versa.

If you factor in item 4 as a number of times to iterate through the
relationship routine (and the type of relationship can change) then I think
you can build reasonable worlds AND all of those weird no atmosphere high
population worlds AND JUSTIFY THEM in the actual design process.

Have a think about it, it's a lot of work but you read like you want
something this detailed.

It's sort of like a character generator for worlds

    - roll the stats            (generate the world),
    - determine initial hobbies (generate local society),
    - determine professions     (generate external influences), and
    - generate skills           (iterate to determine changes).


Bruce...            [email removed]

#5194 mainworld generation

Re: World-Building with history

Bruce Pihlamae [email removed] writes:
>Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that we've only got one set of generation
>rules that are trying to generate everything based on either too many
>random variables or restricting ourselves to too few variations.

<stuff deleted>

>It's sort of like a character generator for worlds
>    - roll the stats            (generate the world),
>    - determine initial hobbies (generate local society),
>    - determine professions     (generate external influences), and
>    - generate skills           (iterate to determine changes).

This is a really bizarre/amazing/wonderful idea. At first glance,
I was a bit taken aback by the amount of work it would require, but
I can envision how such a system could come together, providing
not only the UWP but a history to go with it (analogous to the
character history provided in advanced character generation).
This is really one of the fundamental differences (character
generation-wise) between Traveller and many of the other popular
RPGs. In others games, characters are created. In Traveller,
they evolve, giving them an entire career history before the
game even begins. Transfering this concept to world generation
is a great idea.

Still, I really don't want to go to all the work that this would
require. I'd rather work within the structure of the
"official" basic mainworld generation system. However, if I
ever decide to create a new SF-RPG (heaven forbid), I'd definitely
come back to this idea of yours and put some serious thought
to it.


Re: Remembering the stars in mainworld generation

[email removed] (alistair) writes:
>I don't use extended system generation, so star type doesn't worry me.
>But maybe you could add generation of an appropriate stellar type to your
>system, purely as an extension for 'feel', to go with gas giants,
>asteroids, bases etc.

Hmm... the question, of course, is how far do you go with the "feely"
additions? Since the sunbane-format for sector listings provides an
area to note the star type, I think your suggestion can be easily
accommodated. Go beyond this, however, and we run into problems
concerning compatibility with the existing sector and subsector
viewing programs already out there (the ones I'm thinking of being
provided to us by Mark and Cynthia).

Also, as several TMLers have noted recently, star type does effect
the rest of planetary generation (yes, I'm flip-flopping on my
rebuttal to Arthur Green who suggested that the combinations of M-V
stars and hospitable (even agricultural) worlds was not realistic). So
if we do add this data in for 'feel', we should take care not to
make the same mistake as GDW. I.e., we should first generate star-type
according to known stellar frequency data and then generate the
mainworld, applying DMs to the UPP data as applicable (Arthur had
it right). This would probably make the "inhospitable" worlds even
more common than in the modified system I presented a few days ago.
That's fine with me if it's fine with you (though we can't know for
sure, it's probably closer to the true situation).


Re: More die modifiers for the modified system

[email removed] (Jeff Zeitlin) writes:
>  Why exclude law level from the tech modifier?  The more
>  oppressive a society is, the less likely it is that the geniuses
>  will appear and create the new technology.  Earth history bears
>  this view out; the cultures that made the largest advances in
>  technology were the ones with high levels of personal freedom.
>  Certainly, other, less free cultures may do a better job of
>  exploiting some forms of technology, but they'll probably get it
>  from a culture that is more free.  I'd hardly expect a totally
>  oppressive theocracy to be innovative...

This is a good point. If you send me your suggested modifications,
I'll try 'em out on the program. Another TLMer mentioned via email
that he uses three different tables for determining the government
type of a world. Which one he uses depends on the world's population.
I don't know if this is going too far or not, but the best way to
find out is to try out the idea and see what sort of UWPs it results in.


Re: Standards & Assumptions

Mark Watson [email removed] writes:
>interesting, btw, how the world generation affects and is affected by the
>game background.

I'm sorry to disect your article down to this one sentence, but it's
the one I found most interesting, and I really wanted to focus on it
for my conclusion tonight.

One of the things that always impresses me about Traveller is that
despite the wealth of background material GDW/DGP/FASA/Gamelords/etc
has provided for the "official setting", there is still a great
degree of variation between game masters in terms of the "feel" of
the game, i.e. the hardness of the science, the extent of minor
alien races, the local politics, etc. Just talking with people over
the TML brings out some of these differences. Then there are the
people (the few, the proud :-) who have chucked the "official"
setting in favor of staking out some entirely new territory,
with a new history, new poltical figures, and in short, new standards
and assumptions. I feel that because of these reasons, it's going to
be impossible to build one world generation system which will satisfy
everyone. However, if we stay fairly close to the official system which
we all know and which most of us accept and just try to fix its more
obvious problems, then I'll be able to consider this whole thing a
success.

Comments welcome,

           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       [email removed]
             ( )        [email removed]
              U         [email removed]
           Aachk!       [phone removed]

#5196 Re: More on UWPs

"Bruce Pihlamae" [email removed] writes:
> Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that we've only got one set of generation
> rules that are trying to generate everything based on either too many
> random variables or restricting ourselves to too few variations.

If you're not adverse to going beyond the original six stats, there are
some additional variables which would be extremely useful to have.  As a
quick background, we have the three physical stats of the world, which
describe it in terms of:

Size (independent)
Atmosphere (dependent on size)
Hydroshpere (dependenty on size and atmosphere)

It would be nice to have two additional stats to use in later generation
of the world's characteristics:

Resources (independent) - an indicator of the available natural
  resources on the world.  A high value indicates extensive,
  high-quality, and/or readily exploitable resources (mineral, fossil,
  vegetable, or animal - this is non-specific, except that it indicates
  the presence or abscence of resources which otherwise aren't shown
  in the UWP).  Throw 2d6-2 for Resources; DMs subject to Referee whim
  (for example, the Spinward Marches is known to be deficient in heavy
  elements; perhaps a DM of -1 to the whole Marches to reflect this?).
  Restrict the result to the range 0-F.

Life (dependent on atmosphere and hydrosphere) - A general index to the
  prevalance and variety of life on the world.  A low score would
  indicate a barren world (your average asteroid or iceball "there isn't
  enough life on this ice-cube to fill a space freighter!") while high
  numbers indicate a thriving and diverse biosystem ("There's something
  down there; massive life readings!").  Throw 2d6-2; DM-8 for Vacuum
  Trace, or Insidious, -6 for Very Thin or Corrosive, -4 for Exotic,
  -2 for Dense/High, Ellipsoid, or Thin/Low, No DM for Thin Tainted,
  Standard Tainted, or Dense Tainted, and +2 for Thin, Standard, or
  Dense.  Apply a Hydroshpere DM: -4 if 0, -2 if 1, No DM if 2 through
  5, +1 if 6-9, -1 if A.  Other DMs can be used too: a +1 for worlds
  within the Ancients, First Imperium, or Rule of Man (old colonies or
  terraforming efforts).  If Stellar Types are being used, an additional
  DM for the suitability of the star might not be a bad idea.  Restrict
  to the range 0-F.

[Extra credit if you can identify the quotes]

The resources score can be used to justify settlements on otherwise
inhospitable worlds, and should server as a positive DM for population.
The ratinale is that there is *some* type of valuable resource present
(which doesn't otherwise show on the UWP), and therefore it is likeley
that someone has come (despite the hardship) to exploit it.

The Life score can be used to get a "feel" for the native biosphere, and
to gauge whether or not there is a native race to consider (throw Life
or less on 2d6 for a native sentient or semi-sentient race?).

For figuring out a world in the context of a long-standing interstellar
community, you can use Resources to represent the attractiveness of the
world to the "outside" starfaring cultures, while the Life score can be
used as a basis for determing if there is a "native" culture to interact
with.

Martin Snow writes:
> Anyway, if your planet is too close to its M5 V star, tidal stress will
> overcome the gravitational binding and the planet will break up.  That's
> why there's a minimum distance for stable orbits for planets.

As I understand it, this is the "Roche Limit", and could be looked up in
an astrophysics textbook.  Anybody out there want to provide some
serious numbers?

[email removed] (james vassilakos) writes:
> Hmm... this is an interesting idea. I guess the GM would have to decide
> whether or not such races exist before making a final call on this one.
> Since there are a variety of "taints", however, the race would be
> virtually "locked" to their one "homeworld". Unless they were genetically
> altered to survive there, I don't see how they might have come into
> being. And you still have the obvious question, why would anybody
> engineer a mutant race for a specific tainted atmosphere when there are
> non-tainted atmospheres out there? I guess we could come up with all
> sorts of rationalizations for this.

Huh?  I wasn't thinking about a geneered human (or other) race as
colonists, I was thinking of the naturally-evolved-on-that-world, native
inhabitants.  Even here on Earth, there are plenty of creatures which
have evolved to inhabit environments which would kill other creatures.

Simply because a world has a "tainted" atmosphere, there is no reason to
assume that life couldn't and didn't evolve on that world.  And there is
no reason to assume that this life couldn't evolve into sentience.

Such creatures may or may not be "locked" into their environment; this
depends on the specific adaptations the creature has made to the
environment, and on the environment itself.  Creatures which evolved on
a world with a relatively high concentration of sulfur dioxide in the
air may have a special body covering (hair, scales) that is resistant to
the effects of the acid rain, and lungs that happen to be immune to the
toxic effects of the "taint".  Such a being might survive quite
comfortably in a standard oxygen-nitrogen atomsphere (but may have to take
periodic baths in a mild acid in order to etch off the unwanted dead
skin coverings.

> I like the idea, but I also think that it's unrealistic to implement
> it as a matter of course. Situations like this should be very rare.

That all depends on how prevalent this "life" stuff is.  If life manages
to evolve on nearly any world capable of supporting it to any degree,
worlds with native sentient or semi-sentient races should be fairly
common, and worlds with some form of life should be pretty common.

On the other hand, some well-known writers have written a good chunk of
science-fiction having postulated that the only planet to achienve
sentient life was Earth.  This is, of course, an extreme viewpoint, but
it illustrates the wide variation possible.

For most Traveller use, a "native" intelligent minor race at least once
a subsector seems reasonable, and several per subsector seems more than
possible.

> For a look at what I would call unrealistic, look at either of these
> two worlds:
>
> Pixie/Regina  A100103-D        Paya/Aramis  A655241-9

In the case of Pixie (I've had to deal with this one, I have run quite a
few campaigns out of the Regina subsector), I've taken the approach that
the world is essentually all naval base.  The only personnel ther (with
a handful of exceptions) are Navy personnel, their dependents, and
civillian contractors.  The shipyard facilities are all run by
transients --- the entire population of the world is transient (and
therefore, there were only a handful of "inhabitants" when the world was
surveyed).  There are tens of thousands of people there, almost all of
whom will be gone in two to four years (to be replaces with a new
batch).  The civillian contractors there run shipyards, and aren't
adverse to doing work on non-navy contracts utilizing spare capacity
(thus the Class A rating).

I'd say that the original system (which presumably generated both of
these) was prone to such problems.  Worlds like these *could* occurr,
but should be *much* more rare than the original system provides.  If I
had a choice, I'd use your modified system and hand-modify the worlds
that I specifally wanted to be anomalous, rather than use the original
system and have to check each world for reasonableness.


[email removed]
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future

#5200 New Stats & Old Sentience

Re: Additional UWP/Mainworld Stats

[email removed] (Derek Wildstar) writes:
>Life (dependent on atmosphere and hydrosphere)
>
>For figuring out a world in the context of a long-standing interstellar
>community, you can use Resources to represent the attractiveness of the
>world to the "outside" starfaring cultures, while the Life score can be
>used as a basis for determining if there is a "native" culture to interact
>with.

I *really* like these two stats you've proposed. My only concern is
where to put them in the subsector listings such that the current
subsector viewers won't get fouled-up by them. But that shouldn't
be too hard. Anyway, we should definitely add them to the scheme of
things (of course, this'll mean changing the requirements on some
of the trade classifications... Rich worlds can now be rich for a
good reason :-)

Re: The Spontaneous Evolution of Life & Sentience

>That all depends on how prevalent this "life" stuff is.  If life manages
>to evolve on nearly any world capable of supporting it to any degree,
>worlds with native sentient or semi-sentient races should be fairly
>common, and worlds with some form of life should be pretty common.
>
>On the other hand, some well-known writers have written a good chunk of
>science-fiction having postulated that the only planet to achieve
>sentient life was Earth.  This is, of course, an extreme viewpoint, but
>it illustrates the wide variation possible.

Yeah, I'll admit to being one of those not-so-well-known writers who
(at least up until now) has stuck to this extreme viewpoint, that the
only sentience out there has either evolved on Earth or already
destroyed itself. But I should clarify how this extreme supposition
came about, because it is not one to which I hold dearly. On the
contrary, I think it's ludicrous to make such a statement. I think
that with the probabilities being what they are, that it is *extremely*
likely (even a certainty) that extra-terrestrial sentience has evolved.

However, I've always been conscious of Fermi's old question: "Where
are they?" This, combined with the Travelleresque genre of science
fiction, where a vast region of space is human-dominated and where
exploration is still a serious undertaking, has created a
situation where it becomes extremely difficult to justify the
setting unless we make some very strong (and very unreasonable)
suppositions.

What I mean is that if there are sentient races out there, it stands
to reason that many of them would have taken to the stars *long*
before humans had ever stood upright. Thus, is stands to reason that
any of them that survived would be so far ahead of us in technology
(unless there is a technology ceiling fairly close ahead) that they
would probably appear to us more as gods than as living beings. Since
such "creatures" do not exist in the traveller setting, we have to
go back and reverse our initial supposition, effectively nuking all
non-earth-evolved sentience, making the natural advent of sentience a
rarity of the utmost magnitude. However, Traveller is only a game, and
whether such "creatures" exist in our "real-life" setting has been
left (for whatever reason) as a puzzling exercise for the earth-bound
reader. :-)


           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       [email removed]
             ( )        [email removed]
              U         [email removed]
           Aachk!       [phone removed]