TML nightly: Msgs 5278-5286 V52#18 (fwd)

A thread of 3 messages, 10 March 1993 to 13 March 1993, in the order they were sent.

#5289 TML nightly: Msgs 5278-5286 V52#18 (fwd)

Just to confuse the issue over Battle this and Dread that, (bear with
me, my history is a tad rusty, but here goes). Back after WWI (or
maybe it was the Russo-Japan War...anyway), the World Powers decided
to limit their navies, and bascially said that the various countries
could only have so many of this ship and that ship. Of course, in
order to classify the ships, they had a list of rules which would tell
them what category a ship would fall.

One of the more important considerations was gun size and gun count.
So, one thing the Japanese did soon after these rules were published,
was design what I'm guessing is the Battlecruiser. But what they
effectively did was build a Battleship. It had the size and armor of a
front line battleship, but rather than mounting three gun turrets
carrying 12 or 14 inch guns, they mounted twin guns of (I think) 8
inches.

According to the list, this was a Cruiser...and they could have
several of them. The trick, of course, is that the turrets were all
fitted out and designed to mount the larger guns. The whole ship was
designed to mount the larger guns. When wartime came around and
everybody stopped playing by the rules, it was comparatively easy to
refit by yanking of the dual gun turrets and replacing them with the
large gun turrets -- which, of course, were already built. Nobody said
anything about not being able to build the guns, they just could put
them on the ships.

Of course, on the other side of the coin we have our modern Aegis
Cruisers. Which is really an escort ship for the carrier group, but
then it's pretty big...so maybe it's an Escort Cruiser.

I mean, what do you call a little, 30 foot ship armed with  4 SSMs
designed to knock out just about anything that floats? "Small enough
to be a patrol boat with enough firepower to level Manhattan!"

Design it for the role, name it after the role, perform the role.

Will
([email removed])

#5299 Naval History Lesson

Will Hartung - Master Rallyeist [email removed] writes:
> ... Back after WWI (or
> maybe it was the Russo-Japan War...anyway), the World Powers decided
> to limit their navies, and bascially said that the various countries
> could only have so many of this ship and that ship. Of course, in
> order to classify the ships, they had a list of rules which would tell
> them what category a ship would fall.

I think you are talking about the Washington Naval Treaty of 1920.  This
was primarily between the nations of Great Britain, the United States,
and Japan.  Other powers signed the treaty, as well, but were not
important players in the negotiations.  The treaty was negotiated to
prevent a costly, unnecessary, and potentially dangerous multi-way naval
arms race, and was fundamentally an arms limitation treaty.

> One of the more important considerations was gun size and gun count.
> So, one thing the Japanese did soon after these rules were published,
> was design what I'm guessing is the Battlecruiser.

Um, no, sorry.

Immediately prior to the first World War, Admiral Fisher of the Royal
Navy procured the HMS Dreadnought, the world's first all-big gun
battleship.  The main armament was a relatively large number (10 I
believe) of identical large guns.  Guns were to fire in salvoe (all
together) so that the fall of the shot could be easily observed, and the
aim corrected.  Having all of the same type of gun made this much easier
(it is quite difficult to estimate which gun fired the shot based on the
size of the splash of a miss, at a range of several thousand yards).

Because ships of this type could effectively engage targets at several
TIMES the effective range of earlier designs, the Dreadnought type of
battleship made all previous designs obsolete.  Subsequent battleships
of this type where called "Dreadnought-Battleships" or simply
"Dreadnoughts".

Admiral Fisher also had another idea: to take approximately the same
armament as a dreadnought-battleship and place it in a lighter, faster
hull.  This was the battlecruiser.  He reasoned that the improved speed
and maneuverability would allow the ship to avoid being hit; thereby
protecting it just as well as the armor of the slower battleship.
Subsequent events were to prove this theory wrong.

The Washington Treaty was a marvel of negotiation (made possible
primarily by the American's ability to decrypt and read *everyone's*
diplomatic cables).  It provided for a "Naval Holiday" (a moratorium on
new construction), limited the size of each class of vessel, and limited
the number of such ships each nation could have.  In addition, the
maximum size of weapons was specified for each class (to prevent such
abuses as "aircraft carriers" with 12-inch guns).

The Washington Treaty eventually expired, and was replaced by the London
Naval Treaty (which was *not* a marvel of negotiation), and was
generally repudiated starting around 1935.

During this time the predicted naval amrs race developed.  In the
thirties, gun sizes increased to 15, 16, and 18 inches, armor
protection increased in thickness.  The Americans developed the superfiring
turret (by changing the location of the signting and ranging equipment,
it became possible to mount turrets so that one set of guns fired over
the top of another turret).  Such superfiring dreadnought battleships
became known (logically enough) as superdreadnoughts.  During this time
the speed of the ships increased (better turbines and gearing systems,
more powerfull boilers, and better underwater hull designs) as well.

> I mean, what do you call a little, 30 foot ship armed with  4 SSMs
> designed to knock out just about anything that floats? "Small enough
> to be a patrol boat with enough firepower to level Manhattan!"

I call 'em dead meat.  Such ships are designed to be expendable, and are
best employed against larger ships in groups.  The excahnge of severl of
the PTM or PHM class ships (which are cheap, quick and easy to build) in
exchange for an enemy Escort, Destroyer, or maybe Cruiser (even the
smallest of which have costs in the hundreds of millions, and
construction times to match).


Scott 2G Kellogg writes:
> Power:    3972902/7945805, Fusion=360Terawatts, Dur=300yrs +Jump-1
>           BOOM!  BOOM!  BOOM!  Still going...  Nothing outlasts the
>           Loeskalth...  It keeps going... and going... and going...

AARGH!

[email removed]
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future

#5303 RE: Naval History Lesson

[email removed] (Derek Wildstar) sez:

}The Washington Treaty was a marvel of negotiation

Ahem.  I believe the Naval treaty you are referring to is known
in history as the Kellogg-Briand Pact.

Mmmph.   :-P

He also adds:

}Scott 2G Kellogg writes:
}> Power:    3972902/7945805, Fusion=360Terawatts, Dur=300yrs +Jump-1
}>           BOOM!  BOOM!  BOOM!  Still going...  Nothing outlasts the
}>           Loeskalth...  It keeps going... and going... and going...

}AARGH!

(Snigger Snigger Snigger)

Scott 2G Kellogg