Handmade high-tech

A thread of 9 messages, 26 October 1993 to 8 November 1993, in the order they were sent.

#6241 Handmade high-tech

I''m currently detailing a tech 4 civilization where I've decided that the
limiting factor is not economics or knowledge, but a near-religious
philosophical abhorrence of factories and mass-produced items. These people
wouldn't object to televisions, grav cars or space ships  -  provided they
were handmade!

Consequently I've decided that 90% of all consumer goods are tech 3, 9% is
tech 4, 9/10th of one percent is tech 5, and 1/10th of one percent is tech
6. Question: Does this sound like a reasonable distribution?

It seems to me that some tech 6 (and by no means all of it) is the highest
that would be economically feasible. A master gunsmith might make a living
making a few submachineguns per year. Noone is going to make a career out
of manufacturing one jet-plane per decade.

However, there exist a large leasured class (a landed gentry) that often
make high-tech items as a hobby. These squires might devote a decade to
making one single impressive item.

So my main question is this: Given that you have a large income, can buy
most tech 4-5 items ready-made, can hire assistants for scut-work, has
tech 15 knowledge available, and are willing to devote a couple of hours a
day for a decade to the project, what kind of interesting high-tech items
might you be able to produce? What would be beyond you? Same question for
familiy projects, ie. several family members working on one project over
several generations (this culture is over 2000 years old and very stable).
Would you be able to build a spaceship? Or even a starship?



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     [email removed]
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

#6254 Re: Handmade high-tech

in bundle 513 message 6241 on Oct 26 20:34:46 [email removed]    said:
>
> wouldn't object to televisions, grav cars or space ships  -  provided they
> were handmade!
>
I think one would have to know what your definition of hand made was.
I believe there is a car manufacturer in the south U.S. that hand
manufactures limos (Blackhawk?). In this case all parts are indivdually
fitted, milled, etc. But using a drill press or a lathe isn't really
hand made is it?

> making a few submachineguns per year. Noone is going to make a career out
> of manufacturing one jet-plane per decade.

If I could make a jet by myself (or with a small crew of assistants) in
a decade, with cash up front, and contuation money, plus a large
completion bonus. Then as long as I was making at least a average
wage, then why not?

>
> So my main question is this: Given that you have a large income, can buy
> most tech 4-5 items ready-made, can hire assistants for scut-work, has
> tech 15 knowledge available, and are willing to devote a couple of hours a
> day for a decade to the project, what kind of interesting high-tech items
> might you be able to produce? What would be beyond you? Same question for
> familiy projects, ie. several family members working on one project over
> several generations (this culture is over 2000 years old and very stable).
> Would you be able to build a spaceship? Or even a starship?
>
I don't think that any electronic components could be hand made.
(depending on your definition). It would be pretty hard to even make
vacuum tubes by hand (which of course includes televisions). A lot
of modern machinery also requires fairly tight tolerances. The pistons
in your car have to be almost perfectly cylindrical. These are hard
to do without some level of machinery.

I think that this type of culture is interesting, however. What happens
to visitors to the planet? How could you tell by casual inspection
that a gun was mass-produced, not hand made?

			-Dan

Dan Corrin, Network Manager, Mechanical Engineering, UWO, London, Ontario
InterNet: [email removed].                                [phone removed]
TML/CZ/FrameUsers/Consim FTP site: ftp.engrg.uwo.ca (129.100.100.12)

#6260 Re: Hand-made high tech

Dan's Traveller Mailing List Mail [email removed] writes:
>
> I think one would have to know what your definition of hand made was.
> I believe there is a car manufacturer in the south U.S. that hand
> manufactures limos (Blackhawk?). In this case all parts are indivdually
> fitted, milled, etc. But using a drill press or a lathe isn't really
> hand made is it?

I assume this society does allow the use of tools, otherwise they wouldn't
have progressed past the Stone Age.  In fact, they wouldn't have even made
it into the Stone Age!  Using a flint knife isn't really hand made, is it?
:-)

If the objection to mass-production is philosophical, what they may demand
is that an individual - or even a single group - be responsible for the
entire production of a given item.  And the maker(s) will take some pride
in their product, to the extent of embellishing it a little - signing it,
decorating it, or in some other way adding an organic touch.

> I think that this type of culture is interesting, however. What happens
> to visitors to the planet? How could you tell by casual inspection
> that a gun was mass-produced, not hand made?

Is it just a bland piece of metal?  Or does it have lots of nice, ornate
engravings on it?  Take a look at some old flintlocks, made in the days
when guns were handmade.  The gunsmith probably signed it, either in
writing or with his own brand of decoration.  Of course, a machine could
be made which produced suitably engraved parts, but most places wouldn't
bother.  The customs inspector is likely to say something like "Ooh, that
looks nice, definitely a personal touch there, right it's O.K.", or
alternatively "How boring, that's the thousandth one of those I've seen,
all the same, just drop it in that litter bin over there." :-)

- --
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  [email removed]
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian  |  ARPA:  [email removed]

#6262 Handmade high-tech

> From: [email removed]

>Handmade High-tech: where do you draw the line? Some of the parts required
>to build more advanced and efficient machinery simply MUST be manufactured?
>Is it alright if it's powered by 'natural' factories, like a mill that uses
>a water wheel? I can tell you how a jet turbine works, but I wouldn't know
>what to build it out of to accept the streeses--and you might not be able
>to make the alloys without a masive foundry (which is a kind of factory).
>You need to be more discriminating in your definition. But it's a good idea.

One of the nice things about this definition is that it is applied by human
beings and is therefor not required to be consistent. If you asked them, the
Ajabarans would tell you that they couldn't give you an exact definition,
but that they would know a factory if they saw it. Anything like an
assembly line is out. I guess that the main factor would be the scale of
the enterprise. A blacksmith, OK. A small foundry, propably OK. A massive
foundry, propably not. Of course, that really ought to rule out a number of
low-tech stuff like ocean-going ships, but, as I said, people are not
required to be consistent.

> From: Dan's Traveller Mailing List Mail [email removed]
> Subject: Re: Handmade high-tech
>
>I think one would have to know what your definition of hand made was.
>I believe there is a car manufacturer in the south U.S. that hand
>manufactures limos (Blackhawk?). In this case all parts are indivdually
>fitted, milled, etc. But using a drill press or a lathe isn't really
>hand made is it?

I don't know what a drill press is, but using a lathe would be acceptable
(a handbuildt one, of course ;-).

>>making a few submachineguns per year. Noone is going to make a career out
>>of manufacturing one jet-plane per decade.
>
>If I could make a jet by myself (or with a small crew of assistants) in
>a decade, with cash up front, and contiuation money, plus a large
>completion bonus. Then as long as I was making at least a average
>wage, then why not?

If such a concept as money up front and continuation money existed, yes. I
hadn't thought about that possibility. I'll consider it. But what I had in
mind was craftsmen making stuff and getting their money when they sell it.

>I don't think that any electronic components could be hand made.
>(depending on your definition). It would be pretty hard to even make
>vacuum tubes by hand (which of course includes televisions). A lot
>of modern machinery also requires fairly tight tolerances. The pistons
>in your car have to be almost perfectly cylindrical. Tese are hard
>to do without some level of machinery.

Right. Some machinery is needed. What I had in mind was the kind of
machinery a late 19th Century goldsmith or weaponsmith would have
available. Perhaps the power source would be a good lithmus test. Any
hand-crancked machinery is allowable. But since I'd want people to be
able to use any high-tech they do manage to build, petrol, electricity,
and whatever must be acceptable as long as it is not used for further
manufacture.

Hmmm. It's a good thing consistency is not required, because there are
holes in that logic that you could drive a truck through...

Anyway, handmade means muscle-powered tools only, OK? And no assembly
lines, not even with only muscle power.

>I think that this type of culture is interesting, however. What happens
>to visitors to the planet?

That's what I want my players to find out some day ;-) They get treated to
anything from a cold shoulder to physical abuse, depending on the bigotry
of the native.

>How could you tell by casual inspection that a gun was mass-produced, not
>hand made?

Depends. With slugthrowers you might not be able to. OTOH I think that the
local craftsmen add a lot of individual flourishes to the ornamentation on
their guns. That's one of the effects I'm striving for: Submachineguns
with finely engraved battle scenes! And not two alike, of course.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     [email removed]
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

#6271 Re: Handmade high-tech

Dan? writes:
>I think that this type of culture is interesting, however. What happens
>to visitors to the planet?

[email removed] writes:
> That's what I want my players to find out some day ;-) They get treated to
> anything from a cold shoulder to physical abuse, depending on the bigotry
> of the native.

If the world is fairly isolated from regular offworld traffic, there
will probably be people very eager to leave as well, like any
restrictive society needs an escape valve. Witness the number of
Pennsylvania Dutch children who leave the community to make their way in
the big city in popular society, or people from small towns or students
from the 3rd world who never go back. Or people from Eugene Oregon who
leave for Portland or Seattle (I can sure see why :-).

Or think of the two characters from _Doc_Hollywood_ who wanted to leave
their home town and go to LA. The young lass would have done nearly
anything to get Ben Stone to take her with him. Maybe an idea for a
plotlet in there. "Back to the Interstate, Ben Stone".

On the other hand, maybe the planet is famous for its quirky goods and
has a lucrative trade business. There's still people eager to leave the
Squash capital of the south.

(Acck, I have succumbed to Pop Culture and visual media instead of
literature to get my point across, I am unmistakably a member of
Generation X! Acck!)

James (having a personality crisis)

__   __/         /   /	    Internet Traveller Mailing List, Administrator
    /     /  /  /   /	   James T. Perkins in Eugene, Oregon, USA
 __/   __/__/__/ _____/   [email removed]
Reply-To: [email removed] (TML Administrator)
>From: TML Administrator [email removed]


Dan? writes:
>I think that this type of culture is interesting, however. What happens
>to visitors to the planet?

[email removed] writes:
> That's what I want my players to find out some day ;-) They get treated to
> anything from a cold shoulder to physical abuse, depending on the bigotry
> of the native.

If the world is fairly isolated from regular offworld traffic, there
will probably be people very eager to leave as well, like any
restrictive society needs an escape valve. Witness the number of
Pennsylvania Dutch children who leave the community to make their way in
the big city in popular society, or people from small towns or students
from the 3rd world who never go back. Or people from Eugene Oregon who
leave for Portland or Seattle (I can sure see why :-).

Or think of the two characters from _Doc_Hollywood_ who wanted to leave
their home town and go to LA. The young lass would have done nearly
anything to get Ben Stone to take her with him. Maybe an idea for a
plotlet in there. "Back to the Interstate, Ben Stone".

On the other hand, maybe the planet is famous for its quirky goods and
has a lucrative trade business. There's still people eager to leave the
Squash capital of the south.

(Acck, I have succumbed to Pop Culture and visual media instead of
literature to get my point across, I am unmistakably a member of
Generation X! Acck!)

James (having a personality crisis)

__   __/         /   /	    Internet Traveller Mailing List, Administrator
    /     /  /  /   /	   James T. Perkins in Eugene, Oregon, USA
 __/   __/__/__/ _____/   [email removed]

#6279 TML nightly: Msgs 6269-6274 V63#11

> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 08:31:39 PDT
> From: [email removed] (JAMES PERKINS)
> Subject: testing
>
> hello
>
> ------------------------------
> Subject: Re: Handmade high-tech
> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 08:28:16 PDT
> From: [email removed] (James Perkins)
[...]
> (Acck, I have succumbed to Pop Culture and visual media instead of
> literature to get my point across, I am unmistakably a member of
> Generation X! Acck!)
[...]
> James (having a personality crisis)
> (Acck, I have succumbed to Pop Culture and visual media instead of
> literature to get my point across, I am unmistakably a member of
> Generation X! Acck!)
>
> James (having a personality crisis)

James, Perhaps you ought to sit down, take a stress pill, and think
this over...  James?  Stop, James.  My mind is going...  I can feel it...
I can feel it...   Will you stop James?

Daisy... Daisy...  :-)
- --
Scott 2G Kellogg
"I'm marrying you for your body"  -- 2G Scott's Fiancee

#6294 Re: Handmade high-tech

From Dan Corrin...
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 93 12:25:07 EDT
>From: Dan's Traveller Mailing List Mail [email removed]
>Subject: Re: Handmade high-tech

 ...

>I don't think that any electronic components could be hand made.
>(depending on your definition). It would be pretty hard to even make
>vacuum tubes by hand (which of course includes televisions). A lot

  What about gray areas like imported electronic parts that are then
hand assembled or even just custom packaged?  An end user is typically
more interested in what the product looks and feels like than what's
inside.  Nobody would know but the repairman, and who do you think
would be fixing a one-of-a-kind design anyway?

  Another approach would be to think of all the prototype custom wire
wrapped circuit assemblies of today.  That could be elevated to an art
form if you can get around the problem of mass produced components.


Keith Thoms

- ---- Is it a rule that there is an exception to every rule?

#6312 Hand-made high-tech

Adrian Hurt:
>>Dan's Traveller Mailing List Mail [email removed] writes:
>>
>>I think one would have to know what your definition of hand made was.
>>I believe there is a car manufacturer in the south U.S. that hand
>>manufactures limos (Blackhawk?). In this case all parts are indivdually
>>fitted, milled, etc. But using a drill press or a lathe isn't really
>>hand made is it?
>
>I assume this society does allow the use of tools, otherwise they wouldn't
>have progressed past the Stone Age.  In fact, they wouldn't have even made
>it into the Stone Age!  Using a flint knife isn't really hand made, is it?
>:-)
>
>If the objection to mass-production is philosophical, what they may demand
>is that an individual - or even a single group - be responsible for the
>entire production of a given item.  And the maker(s) will take some pride
>in their product, to the extent of embellishing it a little - signing it,
>decorating it, or in some other way adding an organic touch.

Spot on, Adrian. That is exactly what I had in mind.


Scott Kellogg:
>As to the ability to hand make stuff, it depends on your definition
>of hand made.  Your TL 3 tools would be hand made.  With those tools
>one makes TL 4 tools.  With those, one proceeds to make TL 5 tools,
>6...7...?  With your philosophical preference for hand made stuff,
>sounds like a crew of craftsmen who would be very protective of
>their tools (They'd have to be to build the planes, TV sets (starships)
>you seem to want them too.)
>
>But, would your definition of hand made allow them to use a tool
>(machine?) that would grow silicon chips?  Would it allow them to use
>a tool (machine?) that would allow them to etch a silicon chip?
>All one is doing is using a very sophisticated tool.  It is not a
>"Factory", but is it a tool, or a machine?

Depends on how the machine is used. If it turns out identical chips by
the dozen it's a no-no. If the craftsman can look at one of his chips
and say: 'Yeah, I remember that chip, that's the one I made last Tuesday',
then it's ok.

James T Perkins:
>Dan? writes:
>>I think that this type of culture is interesting, however. What happens
>>to visitors to the planet?
>
>[email removed] writes:
>>That's what I want my players to find out some day ;-) They get treated to
>>anything from a cold shoulder to physical abuse, depending on the bigotry
>>of the native.
>
>If the world is fairly isolated from regular offworld traffic, there
>will probably be people very eager to leave as well, like any
>restrictive society needs an escape valve. Witness the number of
>Pennsylvania Dutch children who leave the community to make their way in
>the big city in popular society, or people from small towns or students
>from the 3rd world who never go back. Or people from Eugene Oregon who
>leave for Portland or Seattle (I can sure see why :-).
>
>Or think of the two characters from _Doc_Hollywood_ who wanted to leave
>their home town and go to LA. The young lass would have done nearly
>anything to get Ben Stone to take her with him. Maybe an idea for a
>plotlet in there. "Back to the Interstate, Ben Stone".

A very good idea, James. I shall certainly include an encounter with
someone like that. Thanks.


THOMS, KEITH:
>From Dan Corrin...
>>I don't think that any electronic components could be hand made.
>>(depending on your definition). It would be pretty hard to even make
>>vacuum tubes by hand (which of course includes televisions). A lot
>
>  What about gray areas like imported electronic parts that are then
>hand assembled or even just custom packaged?  An end user is typically
>more interested in what the product looks and feels like than what's
>inside.  Nobody would know but the repairman, and who do you think
>would be fixing a one-of-a-kind design anyway?

Absolutely contrary to the law and the prophets, but these people would
have the same proportion of rouges and iconoclasts as any other human
population. So a local villain buying such evil stuff off the PCs would
be a definite possibility.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     [email removed]
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

#6315 Re: Hand-made high-tech

[email removed] writes:
> >
> >If the objection to mass-production is philosophical, what they may demand
> >is that an individual - or even a single group - be responsible for the
> >entire production of a given item.  And the maker(s) will take some pride
> >in their product, to the extent of embellishing it a little - signing it,
> >decorating it, or in some other way adding an organic touch.
>
> Spot on, Adrian. That is exactly what I had in mind.

Oh, good.  Now, assuming I've got some idea of how this society works:

> Scott Kellogg:
> >
> >But, would your definition of hand made allow them to use a tool
> >(machine?) that would grow silicon chips?
>
> Depends on how the machine is used. If it turns out identical chips by
> the dozen it's a no-no. If the craftsman can look at one of his chips
> and say: 'Yeah, I remember that chip, that's the one I made last Tuesday',
> then it's ok.

I don't know if silicon chips can be made one at a time.  What the craftsman
(or crafts team, probably) should be able to do is make a whole wafer by
themselves, and identify a chip from that wafer.  Treat the wafer as the
individual's product, and break bits off it to be used as necessary.

Presumably these people don't grow salt one crystal at a time, or sell
orange juice in handy, mouthful-sized containers.  You buy a big lump of
the product, and break bits off as necessary.  The same applies to silicon
chips.

Alternatively, maybe they've gone from discrete components to VLSI in one
step, and produce a whole computer on one mega-chip.  These people are
likely to be the first to make a portable Model/9 computer.

- --
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  [email removed]
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian  |  ARPA:  [email removed]