[email removed] (Mark Urbin) wrote:
> I've been reading the archives of the Beta test group. I noticed someone
> was designing a *large* rifle. In the 15mm range. From what I remember,
> *large* weapons were coming out much bigger than their real-life counter-
> parts. Is that still true or did GDW come up with a fix?
I don't know what the final rules look like, but GDW was looking
at that part of the design and considering changes. One change
that they almost certainly made was to base receiver length on the
"average" energy (and not actual energy), which for these long, heavy
guns would reduce the mass of the receiver somewhat. One fix
that was suggested was to use a different basis for computing the
receiver mass; I don't know if this change was made official or not.
> If the 15mm rifle came out fairly close to what the designer was looking
> for, I'd like to hear about it. I just finished re-reading Pournelle's
> Falkenberg's Legion books and noticed the 15mm sniper rifle used by the
> Royal Spartan Army and their Helot foes. The 15mm rounds ignored the
> `improved Kevlar' used and was effective against light armored vehicles.
> Does the FF&S designs live up to this?
See below. I "designed" a WWII-era Soviet weapon that will punch
pretty effective holes in most personal armor. I'm certain that any
changes to FF&S since the draft I was using wouldn't change the damage
or penetration of the weapon, so you can use the "real world" values
for the weapon (included below) and the FF&S-generated game statistics
to put this weapon in your games now.
Peter H. Brenton [email removed] wrote:
> for those of us not particularly familiar with real-life weapon
> diameters (or at least not in millimeters) could you put this into
> context please?
> I *thought* that a 30-06 rifle had a round 6/10ths of an inch in
> diameter (this doesn't sound right to me).
Sure. The short answer is that the caliber of the weapon is the
diameter of the projectile, in inches or millimeters. Therefore,
a .30-06 is 0.30 inches in diamater (that's 3/10ths). The 15mm
rifle would be fire a 0.591 inch projectile (25.4mm = 1inch). That's
nearly twice the diameter of the .30-06.
> This can't be right if your talking about 15mm
> being a *large* rifle, I assume your talking about an elephant rifle,
> not a deer rifle. Could someone please correct me?
Actually, we're talking about a military weapon, and it bears little
resemblance to either a deer rifle or an elephant rifle. Historically,
this class of rifle was designed in the late 30's and early 40's in an
attempt to design an infantry weapon that could penetrate the armor of
a tank. Tank armor rapidly outstripped the ability of small-arms to
penetrate, and in general the weapons were used agains unarmored or lightly
armored vehicles, or agains infantry under cover, and the weapons fell out
of use.
Relatively recently, similar designs have been used as long-range sniper
rifles. The large bullet, fired at high velocity from a long barrel, as
a very flat trajectory and is less affected by wind, making accurate long
range fire possible. On the GDW-Beta discussion group, I took one of the
WWII era weapons, and someone else did a modern one.
In many cases, the cartirdge these weapons fire was used in large
machineguns as well, and has the same general characteristics; although
the muzzle velocity is a little higher due to the longer barrel of the
sniper or anti-tank weapon. Note that *both* of these calibers are larger
than the US .50 caliber (12.7mm) M2HB machinegun.
> It would also be helpful to me if someone could post a list of standard 'real'
> weapon calibers and show their diameter in mm (ie. .357 Magnum=XXmm pistol).
Sure. Here's a table that gives dimensions in mm, and the "common name" of
just about every round that was readily available for research. You can
figure out the diameter in inches by dividing the size in mm by 25.4 (this
is an exact conversion). I also listed some of the more common weapons that
use this ammunition, in the hopes that either the common name or a weapon name
would provide a memory handle you can use to relate everything. Pistol and
rifle rounds are listed together on the list; you will notice that pistols
generally have shorter cartridges, though.
Designation Name Used In (typical weapons)
4.7x21mmC 4.7mm Caseless Heckler & Koch G-11
5.45x39mm (unknown) AKS-74
5.56x45mm .223 Remington M16A1, FN-CAL, Valmet M82, Galil ARM
5.7x17mmR .22 Long Rifle High Standard .22, AR-7
6.35x15.5mmSR .25 ACP or .25 Auto Colt .25 Automatic
7.62x25mm .30 Mauser Mauser M1896, Tokarev M1933, PPsh-41
7.62x39mm 7.62 Short SKS, AK-47, AKM-47, RPD, RPK
7.62x51mmR .30-30 Winchester 94
7.62x51mm 7.62 NATO or .308 Win M-14, FN-FAL, L42A1, G-3, M60, Minigun
7.62x54mmR 7.62mm Russian SVD, SG-43, PKM, Vz-59
7.62x63mm .30-06 Springfield M1903, M1 Garand, BAR
7.62x66mmB .300 Winchester Magnum Walther WA-2000
7.65x17mmSR .32 ACP or .32 Auto Welrod "Silent", Vz-61 "Skorpion"
7.7x56mmR .303 British Enfield, Vickers, Lewis, Bren
7.7x58mm 7.7mm Arisaka Arisaka M99 (WWII Japanese rifle)
7.92x57mm 8mm Mauser Kar-98k, FG-42, MG-08, MG-34, MG-42
8x21mm 8mm Nambu Type 14 Nambu (WWII Japanese sidearm)
9x17mm .380 Auto or 9mm Short Walther PPK, Ingram M11
9x18mm 9mm Makarov P64, Makarov, Stechkin, PM-63
9x19mm 9mm Parabellum (9mmP) Luger P-08, S&W M39, UZI
9x29mmR .38 Special or .38 S&W Colt Police Positive
9x33mmR .357 Magnum S&W M27, Colt Python
10.8x33mmR .44-40 Winchester M1873
10.97x33mmR .44 Magnum S&W M29 "Dirty Harry"
11.2x32mm .44 Automag .44 Automag
11.43x23mm .45 ACP or .45 Auto Colt M1911A1, Thompson M1928A1
11.43x60mmR .45 Martini Martini-Henry Mk.I
11.56x33mmR .45 Colt Colt M1873
11.6x54mmR .45-70 Springfield Trapdoor, 1874 Gatling Gun
11.6x63.5mmB .458 Winchester Magnum Winchester M70 African
11.6x74mmB .460 Wetherby Magnum .460 Weatherby Mk.V
12.7x83mmR .50-140 Sharps Sharps M1874 "Buffalo Rifle"
12.7x99mmB .50 Browning .50 Cal M2HB
12.7x108mmB Type BZ DshK M38/46 (Russan Heavy MG)
13.9x22mmR .56/50 Spencer Spencer .56 (1st US-issue metal cart)
13.9x99mmB .55 Boys .55 Boys Mk.I
14.45x114mmB Type BS-41 PTRS-41, KPV
15.7x76mmR .600 Nitro Express .600 Nitro Double Rifle "Elephang Gun"
The "Designation" follows the NATO standard for such things, and is simply
the diameter of the projectile by the length of the cartridge case, both
measured in millimeters. So, the .357 Magnum is 9mm in diameter, and the
cartridge case is 33mm long. The letters at the end of the designation
indicate the style of the rim at the base of the cartridge. No letter is
a standard rimless cartridge as used in most modern designs (rimless
cartridges feed better through belts and magazines). A "R" indicates a
rimmed cartridge, which is a very old style and commonly found only in
revolvers. "SR" indicates a semi-rimmed round; this is a compromise between
the easier extraction of a rimmed case and the easier feeding of the rimless
design. A "B" indicates a belted case, used on very powerful rounds to
give the cartridge extra strength. And last (but not least) a "C" indicates
a caseless round.
> I also wonder about how ff&s handles recoil for these *large* rifles.
FF&S computes recoil based on the muzzle energy of the round and the total
mass of the gun (and a couple of other factors thrown in for good measure).
Since these guns are quite heavy (even without the draft
rules making them heavier than they would be otherwise), the recoil comes
out fairly low, particularly considering how much damage they do. Then again,
these large rifles are designed to be fired while stationary, from a bipod.
Here is the rifle I promised earlier. Take the FF&S figures with a grain
of salt, because I was using a draft of the rules; the final rules will
probably do much better. To use this weapon in your games now, take
the values from the "Real World" column. When you need information that's
not there (like price in credits) refer over to the FF&S column. Note
that the FF&S column includes information on a (hypothetical) TL-8 discarding
sabot round which was never actually manufactured for this gun. This
might be a particularly interesting twist on the gun; there's no reason why
DS ammunition *shouldn't* work ...
No longer do your TL-5, xenophobic natives have to cower in fear of
Reformation Coalition backed Star Vikings. Have the local warlord call
up a few squads of these "poor man's fusion guns". With Ball ammunition
(locally producable at TL-5), they can penetrate TL-10 Battle Dress and
any Combat Armor.
With DS ammunition (a TL-8 item), these weapons have damage and penetration
equal to (or better than, particularly at longer ranges) the FGMP-14 and
FGMP-15 and can effectively defeat all forms of personal armor, as well as
the side, deck, belly, and turret armor of the G-Carrier and the Grav Tank.
Given their relative low cost, particularly when compared to their high-tech
opponents Battle Dress (Cr220,000) and Fusion Gun (Cr54,000), these weapons
are clearly very cost-effective.
Example 5: 14.5mm Protivotankovoe Ruzh'yo obr 1941g (PTRS-41)
Item FF&S Value "Real-World" Value
(note 1) (all values taken from published
Ball DS real-world data except as noted)
I. Ammunition
Tech Level: 5 USSR circa 1941
Caliber: 14.5mm 14.5mm
Length: 146.7mm 114mm
Type: Necked Necked, AP Incendiary
Overall Length: 175.7mm ?
Mass: 242.25g 201g
Average Energy: 31007J 31017J
Price: Cr12.1 Cr24.2 ?
II. Weapon Design
1. Barrel
Average Barrel: 147.5cm 139cm
Actual Barrel: 139cm 139cm
Type: Heavy
Weight: 4.17kg ?
Price: Cr1668 ?
Actual Energy: 30123J 31017J
Damage: 12 12 * 12
Penetration: 2-2-3 1-1-2 * 2-2-3
2. Receiver
Type: Light Self-Loader Semi-Automatic
Length: 95.5cm ?
Mass: 30.123kg ?
Price: Cr6024.6 ?
3. Stocks
Type: Wooden Rifle Stock Wooden stocks, carrying
Length: 25cm handles, and integral bipod.
Mass: 1kg
Price: Cr25
Barrel Len Mod: 0.9145 * 1
Close Range: 206.3m 247.6m * 229.0m
4. Feed System
Type: Box Magazine (note 2) Internal Magazine, clip loaded
Capacity: 5 5
Mass: 1.308kg ?
Cost Cr1309 ?
Loaded Mass: 2.519kg 1.193kg
5. Options
? Total Mass: 36.601kg (w/o bipod) 22.053kg (with bipod)
? Total Length: 259.5cm 213.4cm
? Total Price: Cr9026.6 ?
Recoil: 5 * 5
Bulk: 17 * 14
b. Bipod
Bipod Mass: 15.062
Bipod Cost: Cr200.6
Total Mass: 51.663kg 22.053kg
Total Cost: Cr9227.2
Recoil: 3 * 3
* Gaming data computed from real-world values with FF&S formulae.
Notes:
1 - Whenever two figures are given, the first is for ball (an option for
Armor-Piercing Incendiary would have been nice) and the second is for the
"high-tech" (TL-8) Discarding Sabot round.
2 - Figuring the internal magazine as a box magazine that's permanently
attached to the weapon. I'm also using the grams to kilograms "fix" that
I mentioned in my first weapon design.
Comments: Yes, this really was a real gun. Originally designed as a man
portable, anti-tank small arms rifle by the Soviets during WWII, the gun
was quickly outclassed by the rapidly improving armor protection of
German tanks. The cartridge lives on as the ammuntion for the TL-6 KPV
machinegun (found on many Soviet armored vehicles and anti-aircraft
defenses). The gas-operated action of this rifle (scaled down, of course)
found its way into the SKS rifle.
Tactical Considerations:
The close range of this weapon exceeds the extreme range of every fusion
gun except the FGMP-14 and -15, and the short range equals or exceeds the
extreme range of any of the fusion guns. The best use of these weapons
would be long-range fire at the attackers, from behind cover (preferably
cover strong enough to resist an extreme-range fusion gun strike) or
sniping from outside the range of their weapons. If this is impossible
(and it frequently is), then a series protected positions likeley to suprise
the enemy are good (around a corner in a corridor, for example).
Game Use:
This weapon (or rather, one using the "real world" stats and not the FF&S
design, which is completely impractical) could be quite useful to anti-RC
forces in the New Era. A relatively low-tech design, it is quite capable
of being manufactured by many worlds in the Wilds. Although the DS
ammunition is probably going to be considerably harder to produce, there
will probably be a number of worlds equipped with it. As Star Viking
activities expand, it is very likeley that traders operating in the wilds
will find a demand for this type of weapon.
Several adventure plotlines are possible around this weapon; one which
suggests itself to me is probably obvious. The players (RCES or 'Lancers)
attempt a smash-n-grab on some TL-5 to TL-7 dictator. They expect an easy
time of it. Pull this one on your players after they've done two or three
of the same type of missions in a row and have had a chance to get
overconfident and complacent. Suprise them with the weapon; without the DS
ammunition, it shouldn't be too deadly, but should (if employed well) be
able to prevent the PCs from accomplishing some or all of their objectives.
Drive home to them in a practical sort of way how difficult their lives
would be if lots of worlds had them. Later developments in the campaign can
involve efforts to stop free traders from spreading the guns (or the designs)
around the area. Another one might have to do with discovering that someone
is producing DS ammunition.
[email removed]
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Science-Fiction Adventure
In the Far Future