TNE Background 7

A thread of 3 messages, 24 March 1994 to 26 March 1994, in the order they were sent.

#7062 TNE Background 7

Gentlesophonts:

Well, first I need to clarify some `timeline' difficulties with my last
few messages.  For some reason my "TNE Background 4" (TML Msg 7032)
appeared *after* my "TNE Background 5" (TML Msg 7033) in Tuesday night's
postings.  And I messed up my posting in the second group of messages from
Tuesday.  TML Msg 7044 was also called "TNE Background 5" but should have
been "TNE Background 6".  Sorry for the confusion.

I at least have given up the comparison of TNE background to CT/MT in favor
of examining TNE since TNE, as a *fait accompli*, is all that's being
supportedby GDW.  So far, the discussion has centered on the Star Vikings
of the Reformation Coalition since, apparently, that's the only aspect
of TNE background that's been presented by GDW in any detail so far.

I'd still like to examine other aspects of TNE (and CT/MT and non-Imperium
background too) but I guess this is going to be dependent on those of you
who are brave enough to venture beyond the GDW scope.

For now, let's look at the Star Vikings.

[email removed] (Brian Makens) writes:

> The political structure and currents of the RC are
> quite well described as well as RC motivation.

How so?  An important aspect of Beam's original Space Vikings was that they
were highly individualistic and had a great deal of difficulty cooperating.
Much like the Vargr of Traveller, the Space Vikings were often fighting
among themselves.  This situation permitted some to be `blood thirsty
barbarians' while others were more sympathetic explorers and developers.
(This situation was well preserved, almost to a fault, among the Sword Worlds
of the Spinward Marches BTW.)  In the novel, there was *no* Space Viking
political entity larger than a single planet and many Space Vikings operated
from balkanized worlds.

Does the political structure of the RC permit this?  Or is it a much more
cohesive and organized group?  The idea of an Exploration Service suggests
a greater degree of uniformity than was the case with the petty barons of
Beam's Sword Worlds.

Another interesting aspect of the novel was that some Sword Worlds detractors
of the Space Vikings saw them as a threat because they drew the best talent
and resources of the Sword Worlds away from home and into the `wilds' of the
Old Empire.  The view was even expressed that Space Viking settlers in the
Old Empire might be raiding the Sword Worlds themselves in a generation or
two.

> 	   Some of the these worlds, don't make sense. Worlds
> 	   have "data priests" that are in the tech 5-9 eras.
> 	   Given that we are talking 20th Century technology,
> 	   it takes a rather sophisticated population to support
> 	   such a technology(just take a good look around you).
> 	   A population that can support tech 5-9 just doesn't
> 	   seem the type to go in for supersitious data priests.

This is a *very* good point - especially considering the fact that grand
parents on these worlds remember days of *much* more advance technology.
Consider 20th Century Westerners in the developing world today.  They might
not be able to repair a laptop computer while exploring in Antarctica, feeding
the starving in East Africa, or building irrigation systems in Central America,
but they *certainly* aren't going to *worship* the darned thing!


>         5. TED model seems to be too simplistic for the worlds

etc.,

> 	   no outsider is going to tell us what to do), the
> 	   TED gets stronger and stays in power for a record
> 	   length of time(i.e stronger state apparatus than
> 	   apparent and force of nationalism than TED model
> 	   implies).

Not exactly.  I doubt the Space Vikings are going to draw a line at the
atmosphere and wait for `permission' from the UN to cross it.  I also
doubt the folks back home are the sort to start calling for the `boys'
to be brought home as soon as some of them catch some flak.
And BTW, what's a `TED'?  (I'm guessing T-something E-something Dictator?)


Allen Shock [email removed] writes:

> I'm running two concurrent campaigns with the New Era rules; one set in the
> Reformation Coalition circa 1201,

Great.  So what's going on?  Your players, I assume, are RC explorers?  And
they're not chicken stealing?  What's your take on the organization of the
RC government and the issues I raised above?

>  and the other set in the old Imperium
> circa 1106. In fact, I'm running the "Secrets of the Ancients" series (Adv 2
> "Research Station Gamma", Adv. 3 "Twilight's peak" and Adv 12 "Secrets of the
> Ancients", for the newbies)

I'm surprised to learn this after your ardent support for TNE.  :-)

>    Oh, and by the way; I am definitely ALLEN Shock.

Thanks for the clarification.

>    Oh, and one more thing, while I have taken it upon myself to defend TNE
> from it's detractors, I have both CT and MT, and still run CT from time to
> time (like this Thursday night). Traveller in all  it's forms is far above
> anything else.

Hey, some common ground!  Great!


John H Bogan [email removed] writes:

> If the RCES saw themselves as the heirs to the legacy of the
> Imperial (spit on ground) scout service, would they view the
> Wilds as "diseased", to be cured with "star-hot plasma, RAM
> grenades, and coherent light"?

Clearly there's some room for different interpretations of the role of the
Space Vikings - which isn't necessarily bad.  As has already been pointed out
previously, one of the strengths of Traveller has always been the lack of
clear distinctions between `good' and `evil' in Traveller - simple examples
being both the Zhodani and the Solomani.  An important issue though is going
to be the degree to which whatever attitude is predominant in the RC is
monolithic in it's support or not.  The more monolithic the attitude the
less chance there will be for both `good' vikings and `bad' vikings.

> That may be fine for you, but that's not true for everyone.
> I know the people I game with, and even if I don't care how
> the maneuver drives work, eventually the players are going
> to try something that will MAKE me care about it.

This is true, but as a referee I've always felt that consistency is more
important that adherence to any rules.  If the PCs discover some clever way
of dealing with a situation then the NPCs are just as likely to have found
a clever counter.  (Unless of course, you allow PCs access to *player*
knowledge, which can again be countered by allowing NPCs access to *ref*
knowledge!)  The point is *none* of us *really* knows how the maneuver drive
works (and much of the rest of the technology as well, especially the *jump*
drive).  Some folks are really into this sort of `imagineering' and that's
fine, but it's not the sort of game I had in mind when I started this
discussion about background.

This discussion was started with a deliberate attempt to avoid rules-related
issues.  I know we've seen where rules might influence the background but in
general I believe a good ref can avoid any major problems if her intention is
to stay true to background rather than rules and he still maintains consistency.

I suspect we'll get a lot of discussion now about the Reformation Coalition.
What about the rest of the TNE universe?  Who's adventuring in other places?

And I'm still waiting to hear from folks that are still adventuring in the
Old Imperium campaign or who have gone on to even `bigger and better' settings.

Peace,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

#7074 RE: TNE Background #7

>What's your take on the organization of the RC government and the issues I
raised above?
  The RC is governed by a representative democracy, with representation based
on population (although all planets are guaranteed one vote). There are many
sub-factions, but the two most powerful are the Centrist bloc, who are in favor
of a strong central government based on the Feudal Technocracy model, and the
Federalists, who are in favor of a looser organization which allows worlds to
develop their own social systems. In all, the RC is a fairly organized
governmental entity (at least for a relatively new government), It doesn't
sound at all to me like the "Space Vikings" of H. Beam Piper fame. (By the way
what's the name of that book? I'd like to read it.)
  The RCES is an organized (although again loosely) group similar to the old
Imperial INterstellar Scout Service in some ways. It has four major functions
according to PATH OF TEARS, pages 30-31:
   DISCOVERY: Basic exploration and information-gathering. The Discovery
Mission Statement reads "Identify and locate key resources neccesary to
establish interstellar commerce." This is performed in two ways. Missions
codenamed "Stardust" are purely scientific missions, such as initial surveys
of systems or unihabited worlds. Missions codenamed "Moonshadow" are missions
of covert contact with intelligent inhabitants of a world for intelligence
gathering purposes.
   RECOVERY: "Secure and preserve those assets currently in the Wilds
neccesary to the establishment of interstellar commerce." These also come in
two brands: Cold Recovery missions, where the tech is abandoned or sentient
resistance is not expected, and Hot Recovery, where those who have the tech
want to keep it. All missions against TED's (Technologically Elevated
Dictatorships) fall into this category. These are the missions commonly known
as "Smash and Grab" missions.
    INTEGRATION: Actual integration of inhabited worlds into the RC. Quoting
from the book, "Diplomacy is the preferred means of integrating a world into
the Coalition". When the people like the government, and it treats them well,
the RC tags the planet TDO (Trade and Diplomacy Only), no SAG's allowed.
A Charismatic Dictator who was loved by his people and benevolent toward them
would not be overthrown.
    A second type of Integration method is Pacification. Only two worlds have
been integrated this way, but there will undoubtably be more. INteresting to
note that the Third IMperium (and the two preceding) engaged in this practice
as well. It's almost neccesary; allowing pockets of resistance within your
space would make as much sense as allowing Missouri to be an independant nation
in the middle of the US, especially if they were hostile. Admittedly, this is
distasteful (as I'm sure it is to many within the RC) and I intend to stay
away from this kind of thing.
     REGENERATION is the final step; helping the worlds to rebuild their
technological base and reestablishing interstellar commerce. This is, as the
book points out, the major goal of the RC. Two operations are used here;
Commerce with Free Traders and RC merchants, and Bootstrap operations, where
the members function much as Peace Corps members do, helping the people relearn
the technology they need.

   I'll post later about our specific campaign activities; this post is long
enough :)
          Allen

#7075 Re: TNE Background 7...

First of all, let me take this opportunity to thank David Johnson (a fellow
member of the prestigious 'djohnson e-mail address club') for 'organizing' the
general thrust of discussion...You, sir, are an excellent moderator!

On to other things...

1.  _Path of Tears_ ... This book has made me, in some ways, re-evaluate
the role that GDW sees for the RCES in the future.  In many ways (to me)
it strongly resembles the tone I've seen developing over on the TNE
Pocket Empire mailing list.  That tone is one of empire building and the
forging of an interstellar government out of a group of loosely
cooperating worlds who face unknown dangers at their borders.

All well and good.  In many ways GDW should be proud of this sourcebook.
Again, to re-iterate, it would have made a fine 'beyond the frontier'
sourcebook.

Specifics of the setting:  The Reformation Coalition consists of a
handful of worlds, each self-governed, who have a sort of loose
parliamentary government to handle 'interstellar' details.  I haven't
read the sourcebook closely yet, but the feeling I get is very similar
to that of reading about the 13 colonies in and around the time of the
American Revolution.

Clearly, Traveller: The Fourth Imperium is the logical 'next edition' of
Traveller.  Whether that will be in the form of the RC and the Regency
combining or what, I dunno.

2.  What's going on outside the RC?
	This is a fundamental problem with the way in which GDW is
choosing to support TNE.  The release of the Rulebook saw many shaking
their heads in disgust over the (rather spotty) ethics and modus
operandi of the RCES.  The release of _Path of Tears_ modifies at least
my impressions of them pretty heavily simply because I now have a
clearer picture.  My point?  I needed the Cr18 sourcebook to get an
accurate picture -- What was in the Rules was insufficient (at least for
me).  The Regency is the same way (as are the regions once held by the
Solomani, K'kree, Aslan, and Vargr (mostly)) -- Until the sourcebook
comes out we won't know who Avery was, etc.
	Of course, in many ways, this is a basic marketing ploy on the
part of GDW, and a not-unfamiliar one -- To 'accurately' follow the TNE
continuity will require several 'interlocking' sourcebooks so that we
can see the whole picture.  Unfortunately, for those of us unhappy with
the region of focus at the moment, we are forced to develop our own
information in the almost certain knowledge that our carefully
rationalized explanations will probably not jibe with later published
materials.

	My general disgust with TNE would have been almost entirely
assuaged if GDW had chosen to remove all of the "New Era" specific data
from the TNE rulebook, a la the old 'Basic Traveller'.  Rules and
Background can, in most cases, be safely divorced from one another,
especially in a game like Traveller where Background issues affect
people's enjoyment of the game.  Having only had the 'core rules' in one
place and 'background details' in another would have permitted me (at
least) to have developed a more accurate picture of the background GDW
was painting while enabling me to completely develop my own settings
without having to worry about weeding out the influences of the TNE
campaign specifics (I'm here refering to the disparity of UWP gov't
codes for TEDs in the wilds <Oh, yeah TED = Technologically Elevated
Dictator> and the increased Crew requirements for ships in TNE due to
anti-virus measures).

3.  What I'm planning on doing, in terms of background, is the
development of an Imperial setting away from the standard area but
during the Imperial era.  I've picked Rim Reach as the perfect target --
Close enough to K'kree, Hiver and Aslan space to justify their presence
on the one hand, and removed enough to not have to worry about published
stuff ever impacting me.  Also, I'm going to put a Rosette system left
by the Ancients with a minor Human race on one world, a minor Vargr race
on another and some Droyne on a third.  This lets me get all the major
races in one spot, and I can say that, during the long night, the natives
of the Rosette system were contacted by some of those footloose Solomani
traders/exiles (a la Sword Worlds/Darrians) so that they now have jump
drive and their own hi-tech, politically stable 'pocket empire'.

4.  The revelation of what exactly is behind the Black Curtain is going
to turn out to be on the same order as the revelation in _The Secret of
the Ancients_.  :/


Dane

[email removed]           [email removed]

TNS Stringer ------ Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8)
"My opinions are those of my fuzz-brained, cat-sniffing Norwegian Elkhound."