David Johnson responds:
Okay, like the Revolutionary American Federalists. Since the
government is described as `representative' I assume neither the
Centrists nor Federalists believe in aristocracy? Democracy, or some
form of voting at least, is the way to govern. One wonders where
these `progressive' attitudes come from (hasn't it been suggested that
the Regency is more `democratic' as well?) in the ruins of a millenia
of aristocracy? Democratic traditions just don't spring up over
night, or even in seventy years, after that sort of history - look at
the former Soviet Union. (How long has it been since the Magna
Charta?) And the post-Imperial states haven't had a big democracy
offering financial incentives to make the move to democracy either.
Only in the mind(?) of GDW . . . .
And in the TNE rulebook. The Reformation Coalition is pro-democracy
because it holds the Imperial system of government responsible for the
destruction of interstellar civilisation. They don't see the rebellion
as some aberrant blip in the Third Imperium's history, some kind of
unfortunate accident that screwed it up. The RCers see it as the
logical (perhaps inevitable) culmination of the whole Imperial system.
Hence they don't want to repeat the same mistakes. Hence their attempt
to construct a new and fundamentally different form of interstellar
government. And if you think about the history of the Traveller
universe they may have a point. There have been three human
interstellar civilisations ruled using the Imperial system. They have
all collapsed eventually.
As for the member worlds of the former Third Imperium having no
democratic traditions - well, some of them were democracies (look at
the UPP of some of the old era sectors). Local planetary governments
were free to use whatever system they liked so long as they towed the
line as far as Imperial policy was concerned and payed their taxes to
the Emperor. The Imperium governed at the subsector level and above,
not at the planetary level. Whenever a movement arose within the
Imperium to create a multi-star system govermental unit independent of
the Imperium it was discouraged by the Imperial Navy. Remember the
Solomani Rim War? All the Solomani wanted was independence from the
Imperium (using a democratic form of government).
I find it amusing that so many people have a rose-tinted view of the
Third Imperium. They seem to regard it as some kind of utopia. But it
was ruled by a hereditary aristocracy for Grudd's sake! The whole
Imperial system was set up to benefit them. And in the end, it was
their thirst for power that brought the Imperium down and killed
billions of sentient life forms.
Allen Shock:
In all, the RC is a fairly organized governmental entity (at least for
a relatively new government),
David Johnson:
Okay, which means the Star Vikings are either all `bad' or all `good'
depending on how you see the RCES defining it's role. There won't be
much variation in the ranks.
I think that this is a specious argument. You're trying to force
things into one absolute or another. There's is no reason for this to
be the case. As a citizen of a newly emergent multi-nation government
(the European Union) the idea that somehow all the member governments
and their populations will be forced to think the same way strikes me
as ridiculous. It just isn't happening. That said, there are
nationalist's within every nation who would have you believe that this
is happening.
David Johnson:
Aren't *markets* the fundamental `necessity of interstellar
commerce'? Doesn't this sort of preclude `chicken stealing' of any
sort? (Whether I call it `identification', `location', `preservation'
or whatever?) Wasn't the collapse of *markets* (and access to them),
in GDW's own words, what led to the collapse of the Imperium during
the Rebellion rather than a lack of resources? (Do they ever read
what they put out after it hits the stores?)
Well, markets (and just about anything else) have a habit of collapsing
when you lob high-yield thermonuclear missiles at them. As for the
development of interstellar commerce being incompatible with 'chicken
stealing' - have you looked at the 19th century colonisation of
Africa? Plenty of 'chicken stealing' took place with the European
colonists ripping off the native Africans every which way they could
while they built (or rather extended and dominated) the local economy.
And exports from Africa were used to fuel the economic development in
Europe and in America. Admittedly this is not a nice model for the
activities of the RC which is intent on practicising 'enlightened
selfishness'.
Allen Shock:
Hot Recovery, where those who have the tech want to keep it. All
missions against TED's (Technologically Elevated Dictatorships) fall
into this category.
David Johnson:
Okay, so `good' Vikings only hit TEDs while `bad' Vikings will take it
from you regardless. Who makes this TED determination anyway? The
RCES? That's sort of like the 1950s CIA looking for commies isn't
it?
Sure, any classificatory system can be self-serving. Remember the
Major/Minor race distinctions that the Vilani came up with? It was a
handy way of keeping those uppity newcomers to the interstellar scene
in their place (below all those Vilani aristocrats). Or look at the
foreign policy of any contemporary power such as the U.S. Notice how
enemies of the U.S. are mysteriously transformed into enemies of the
free-world, democracy, goodness, god etc. I don't see how this is a
problem. The RC see themselves as the good guys. Other people may see
them as the bad guys. Are they really good guys or bad guys? It's up
to you but I think that there is much evidence to support either view.
Mabye they're neither.
Allen Shock:
INTEGRATION: Actual integration of inhabited worlds into the RC.
Quoting from the book, "Diplomacy is the preferred means of
integrating a world into the Coalition". When the people like the
government, and it treats them well, the RC tags the planet TDO (Trade
and Diplomacy Only), no SAG's allowed.
David Johnson:
So this is the United Federation of Planets! :-) (Join Starfleet!
Tour the galaxy! Meet interesting aliens! And sleep with them! :-)
Or mabye it's just the pragmatic recognition of the fact that a ruler
with a contented population who will support him in a war is a tougher
enemy than a ruler who is hated and who will not gain as much support.
Conquering a people and then ruling them is a difficult business and it
can tie down your resources (starships, military units) for years.
Look at Northern Island (an example from my own country's history).
This area was conquered 400 years ago and it still rebels against
British rule. It is easier to rule when you've the cooperation of the
ruled. I don't think that the Coalition has the manpower and equipment
to force itself on the surrounding worlds.
Allen Shock:
A second type of Integration method is Pacification. Only two
worlds have been integrated this way, but there will undoubtably
be more.
David Johnson:
And this is the US in Somalia (only RC citizens give a damn about
folks who aren't just like them and aren't squeemish in the face of
casualties)? Or is this the Soviets in Afghanistan, which the RCES
uses as a training guide? With a relatively stable, centralized
government in the RC this `good vik' - `bad vik' issue will have to be
resolved.
I don't think so. Remember IranGate? Seems that government agencies
and department's within agencies can have their own agendas, sometimes
incompatible with the policy of the government. Out in the wilds you
are on your own. Tough decisions must be made quickly. RC personnel
have to interpret the guidelines. Is this guy a real TED who we should
overthrow or is he not 'bad' enough? Don't know. Better check with
headquarters. Uh...they're only 8 weeks away by starship.
Allen Shock:
REGENERATION is the final step; helping the worlds to rebuild
their technological base and reestablishing interstellar
commerce. This is, as the book points out, the major goal of the RC.
Two operations are used here; Commerce with Free Traders and RC
merchants,
David Johnson:
Is this sort of like letting Exxon or Alcoa come into your country to
help you develop? (Or William Penn buying Manhattan for a handfull of
beads?) Doesn't sound too benevolent to me.
But it creates lots of local jobs. I assume that you think that the
economic development offered by the Third Imperium to its' member
worlds was unselfish and totally beneficial? Here's a nice man from
Naasirka who wants to build a huge industrial complex on your pastoral
planet...if you refuse, the local Imperial governor (who just happens
to be a member of Naasirka's board of directors) will be most
upset...no more Regional Aid for you.
David Johnson:
Now this sounds benevolent but this has to come from altrusim - the RC
won't recognize any benefit (other than spiritual) from this sort of
behavior for decades. My question is: do the TNE rules spend as much
time explaining irrigation network as they do explaning armor piercing
rounds?
Perhaps GDW didn't envisage people wanting to spend a lot of time
planning irrigation systems. Still if enough people write in mabye
they'll release a rules supplement for it...
Allen Shock:
> That tone is one of empire building and the > forging of an
interstellar government out of a group of loosely > cooperating worlds
who face unknown dangers at their borders.
David Johnson:
Maybe, but empire buliding is seldom very altruistic and often very
bloody. It seems to me there's a fundamental conflict in the goals of
the RC. Is GDW trying to make the RC everything to everyone? Should
they? And more importantly, can they? Is there the potential for a
split between empire- builders and altruisitc-developers? It seems
the internal structure of the RC is more important to the Centrists,
Federalists, and other blocs than are these fundamental issues of how
the RC will interact with the rest of the world.
You are still intent on forcing the RC to be either one thing or the
other. I don't see why it can't be both. Are you saying that this kind
of conflict in goals doesn't exist in the activities of real world
governments and their foreign policies? I don't see this as a problem,
I see it as realism. And I think that this conflict makes the setting
a lot more interesting. Selfish RCers versus the do-gooders. Yeah!
Allen Shock:
> Whether that will be in the form of the RC and the Regency >
combining or what, I dunno.
David Johnson:
You can bet that by the time the RC meets the Regency each will have
its own interests which will most likely be in conflict. Those who
have `rebuilt from scratch' won't have any interest in turning over
what they've wrought to those who stood by `holding the torch'. Now
there's an interesting conflict! (And d**n, now I've gone and
broadcast it to everyone!)
I've been thinking about this too. Since the RC hates the Imperial
system and the Regency is the sole remaining part of the Imperium, I
don't think that they will get on too well. I hope that GDW do publish
some information about what the Regency's plans are. I would have
thought that they should be sending expeditions out into Deneb and
Corridor at the same time as the RC is beginning to expand. Unless
some as yet unknown third party appears as a common enemy we can expect
conflagration when they contact each other.
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* Ray Pullar [email removed] *
* "Quantum mechanics? Even I don't fully understand it." - Ian Sales *
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