Gentlesophonts:
Some very interesting discussion Saturday night, especially some that moves
our discussion on to the Regency and other areas.
Jeff Freeman [email removed] writes:
> I thought that the direction in which The Viral-Imperium was
> headed had already been decided -- just from reading the TNE
> rulebook.
> Observation: If the Star Vikings fight the Regency (and I
> agree completely, they must!) then the winner will go down in
> history as "the good guys". They will need no defense by
> acadamians such as these. The losers, apparently the RC,
> would be vilified... to the point that some generations later
> scholars would feel the need to set the record straight.
>
> Compare: American Indians.
> Had the Indians succeeded in pushing Europeans from
> American soil, no doubt the situation would be opposite.
Jeff makes some very good points. Clearly, those who are writing the
`history blurbs' are trying to `rehabilitate' the Star Vikings and while
this suggests they weren't `victorious' this doesn't necessarily have to
be the case. The Regency and the Coalition might have come to some sort
of integrative accord and yet the Star Vikings might still have been
perceived as `barbarians' by the `dominant' culture of the Regency. (A
good example would be the `dominant' American perception of Southerners.)
Another case might be that the Star Vikings are being `rehabilitated' in
reaction to the `politically correct' attitudes that originally painted
them as `bad guys'. (Sort of like the `men's movement' now.)
> In away, this is good news for the "Down with TNE, Long Live
> the Imperium" crowd. Push ahead 50 years and your beloved
> Imperium is back... slightly more democratic (q.v. Changes in
> the Regency), but The Imperium nontheless.
And with *Traveller: The Fourth Imperium* we'll have all the TNE folks
complaining about all their TNE material being made obsolete and pining
away for the `good old days' when Vikings were Vikings and the Virus was
`in your crosshairs'. :-)
Jeff Zeitlin [email removed] writes:
> Thus, the Hivers work with the RC to create stable
> governments, and in the process, influence the "direction" that
> the RC develops to suit their (the Hivers) needs.
Thanks for the info. This particular fact makes me much less comfortable
with the Coalition. It sounds a great deal like the Coalition may merely
be the pawn of the Hivers. Is this the case? Maybe all that `democracy'
doesn't really matter? (Watch out! Here's comes the firestorm.)
> The 3I was in no way homogeneous - either technologically
> or culturally.
Well, yes, but is it really relevant to say that some low-tech, backwater
world was `part' of the Imperium. Such a world played little or no role in
the conduct of Imperial affairs. It was the worlds with an `affinity' for
technology that `made up' the Imperium and it will be worlds with similar
affinities that will make up whatever interstellar state or states that
arise from the Collapse. I guess the worlds without these affinities are
what you would refer to as `ghettoized'?
> But the Collapse threw the 3I worlds back to
> pretty low tech levels, and some of them will have been fortunate
> enough to (a) have a cache of low-tech reference materials (a.k.a.
> paper books), (b) be in an area that is relatively free of vampire
> ships (as opposed to the Promise Main in Diaspora), and (c) have
> avoided developing rabid xenophobia and/or technophobia. These
> worlds will form the nuclei of pocket empires or Reformation
> Coalitia. But you'll still have the dominant high-tech nucleus
> with other worlds acting strictly as feeders for one or another
> necessary foundation material.
>
> T::>(I'm not trying to suggest that Western culture is somehow
> ::>`better' than other cultures, merely that is is better suited
> ::>to the practice of technology - that `technology' is part of
> ::>the Western cultural tradition. Whether that is a `good thing'
> ::>or not remains to be seen.)
>
> And it is quite clear, and natural, that the GDW-designed
> interstellar states should share that bias - all of the GDW
> designers are, after all, North American Terrans from the
> twentieth century, with all of the cultural baggage that comes
> with that.
>
> T::>Such will not be the case in the worlds that are `integrated'
> ::>into the RC. All former Imperial worlds, to a certain extent,
> ::>will enjoy a `technological' cultural tradition. They will not
> ::>face many of the obstacles to technological development faced
> ::>by non-Western cultures on Earth.
>
> Except that there is a lot of xenophobia that has developed, and
> the technological tradition and cultural background wasn't all
> that firmly entrenched on all of the worlds. Remember, the static
> Vilani culture was in control of most of Imperial space for a lot
> of years; that's one culture that does not encourage innovation.
> The Solomani made an impact on that culture far out or proportion
> to its numbers, due to the encouragement of technological
> development. But the Solomani veneer can be expected to be quite
> thin, as it was really only around for a couple of thousand years
> (part of which was the Long Night - which saw many of the same
> problems that the Wilds see now.)
>
> T::>> we're looking at the ghettoization of space, with all of
> ::>> its attendant problems (again, look at present-day Terra for
> ::>> examples of what can happen).
>
> T::>Not necessarily. Had TNE occurred several hundred years after
> ::>the Rebellion maybe the technological traditions of the
> ::>Imperium would have been lost but in just seventy years, or
> ::>even 150 if it takes the RC that long to expand a great deal,
> ::>those traditions will still exist. Look at the Renaissance of
> ::>Western Culture after the Dark Ages - much of what had been
> ::>done in the Classical Era was quickly reincorporated into the
> ::>culture.
>
> But classical cultures were the foundation for the Dark Ages
> culture in the first place, and was more homogeneous than the 3I
> was. This is the point that you're overlooking. While there were
> definitely failures of policy, it's pretty clear that
> _culturally_, the policy of the 3I was to step back and let them
> go their own way. They simply must follow a minimum set of rules
> (i.e., no nukes, no slaves, and no violating extrality...), but
> within those very broad constraints, freedom. How else could
> you have had TL4 charismatic dictatorships in the same Imperium as
> TL 10 religious oligarchies and TL15 participating democracies? -
> and think just how different the cultures that support these
> different governments must be.
>
> T::>> However, the Regency will have access to the Jumpstart
> ::>> caches
>
> T::>Jumpstart caches?
>
> Mentioned in Arrival Vengeance. Caches of resources that the
> Emperor (or an archduke, perhaps; never really established) could
> release to start massive public works projects in an economically
> troubled area. When Strephon essentially abdicated in Norris's
> favor, he handed over the information and "passwords" as well.
>
> Also mentioned was Longbow, which was hinted at as being possibly
> a communications project of some sort, and one that may very well
> be involved with psionics. One of Strephon's comments to Norris
> in connection with this was to watch the Zhodani, as they may
> know. Or some such comment as that; I'd have to look it up, and
> AV isn't handy at the moment.
>
> T::>> we're going to see the (N+1)th Interstellar Wars/Pacification
> ::>> Wars/Wars of Integration/Coalition Wars/Regency Wars/Guild Wars.
>
> T::>Of course we are. :-)
>
> Yeah... that _was_ kind of stating the obvious, wasn't it... :)
> ==========================================================================
> Jeff Zeitlin [email removed]
> - ---
> ~ QMPro 1.52 ~ ... the glorious failures and the glorious victories...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Bundle: 570
> Archive-Message-Number: 7150
> Subject: 71:4/7121 Regency vs. RC
> From: [email removed] (Jeff Zeitlin)
> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 94 21:27:00 -0500
>
> Subject: 71:4/7121 Regency vs. RC
>
> T::>Jeff Zaitlin:
>
> That's "Zeitlin", but don't worry; I get that kind of thing all
> the time...
>
> ::> The Regency will also have the same kind of high-tech center,
> ::> because the center did not lose the technology in the first
> ::> place. However, the Regency will have access to the Jumpstart
> ::> caches, which will allow a more even development of the
> ::> technological and industrial base - or, the Regency can do
> ::> nothing, and allow the reintegrated areas to develop on their
> ::> own. In either case, the Regency is likely to have less of a
> ::> ghettoization problem, as they have no need to scavenge high
> ::> technology, and their expansion is not driven by a need to import
> ::> from an external market. High tech centers will develop, but not
> ::> in such a way that they will be driven to focus on serving the
> ::> needs of an already extant high-tech area.
>
> T::>What amazes me is the fact that the Regency isn't already expanding
> ::>into Deneb and Corridor at a furious rate (or indeed, into Verge
> ::>via the Jump-5 route across the Great Rift). Either the Regency
> ::>still fears Zhodani betrayal or a war with the Aslan colonies while
> ::>its' efforts are concentrated on rebuilding its trailing worlds or
> ::>it still believes there to be a strong threat from the Virus.
>
> No, it seems to be a little more complicated than that. It seems
> that there was one ship that got through the cordon, and as a
> result, the planet of Gram suffered. Badly. The fallout from
> that was that the _public_ perception (though not necessarily at
> the highest levels of government) was that it was too dangerous,
> from a Virus standpoint. Also remember that they have to guard
> the entire Vargr border. Expansion into Corridor lengthens that
> border, and it may not be feasible to maintain "adequate" border
> controls.
>
> The J5 Route across the Rift leads from the Aslan Spinward
> Colonies to what used to be the main body of the Hierate. It's
> not Norris's to exploit. The Spinward Aslan may very well look to
> Norris with much respect, and be inclined to follow his advice,
> but they do not subordinate themselves to him, any more than the
> Zhodani do.
>
> T::> But
> ::>since the Virus (except for a few pockets here and there) has
> ::>largely disappeared there is nothing to stop it. And with the
> ::>Regency's industrial base largely intact it should be able to
> ::>expand very rapidly. Frankly, in a contest between the Regency
> ::>and the RC I don't see how the RC could win. They are just too
> ::>small. Which means that GDW must be planning on keeping the
> ::>Regency within its' existing boundaries for some time to come (to
> ::>give the RC time to catch up). I don't personally find this credible.
>
> Different attitudes, different responses to a situation. There
> are people that did not find it credible that the US had no
> interest in incorporating foreign countries into a US-controlled
> (as opposed to merely dominated) empire. Nevertheless, the US
> never used this model, whereas it was the typical Soviet/Russian
> model. Nobody thought that the Terran upstarts could beat the
> long-established Vilani empire, either. Yet the Rule of Man
> happened anyway.
>
> T::>Jeff Zaitlin:
> ::> Does the RC know that the Regency and the other Spinward states
> ::> exist? Do the Hivers? Does the Regency know about the survival
> ::> of the Hive Federation? About the RC?
>
> T::>What about the K'kree? They've always been (pardon the pun) the
> ::>dark horses of the Traveller universe. Could they make a bid
> ::>for increased living room (bigger, brighter pastures await you
> ::>in the ruins of the former Third Imperium). But mabye they just
> ::>live too far away...
>
> Unlikely. They wouldn't have had any defenses against Virus,
> except distance. And the Hivers were just as far, for the most
> part. The Hivers got bit, and only their sophisticated knowledge
> of computers saved them. Relations between the Hive Federation
> and the Two Thousand Worlds were not so good that the Hivers would
> have gone out of their way to help the 2KW. Thus, the 2KW
> suffered the same fate as the Aslan Hierate, the Solomani
> Confederation, and the Third Imperium.
>
> T::>Jeff Zaitlin:
> ::> At this point in time, we must assume that the answer to all of
> ::> these questions is "no" and that both the Regency and the RC will
> ::> develop in their own way, until they meet. That meeting is
> ::> likely to occur due to both states attempting to integrate or
> ::> build forward bases on the same planet. With such a fundamental
> ::> difference in outlook, we can expect to see armed conflicts, as
> ::> the Regency tries to prevent undue interference in the internal
> ::> affairs of a client or member state, while the RC is trying to
> ::> mold the state into what they feel is an "appropriate" shape for
> ::> membership. Add to this mixture the Guild, which will try to
> ::> keep both interstellar states out of the picture, and I think
> ::> we're going to see the (N+1)th Interstellar Wars/Pacification
> ::> Wars/Wars of Integration/Coalition Wars/Regency Wars/Guild Wars.
>
> T::>This depends very much on any future political change within the
> ::>Regency. It has already moved towards a more democratic system.
> ::>It's connection to the Third Imperium will taint it in the eyes
> ::>of most RCers but then, we can't all be perfect. The RCer may
> ::>consider the Imperium to have been immoral in some of its'
> ::>practices but I don't think that they place it at the same level
> ::>as your average TED (basically what the Imps would have called a
> ::>barbarian with nukes). The Imperium, whatever its' faults, was
> ::>civilised.
>
> Well, yes and no. I think it depends more on the _cultural_
> attitudes than the _political_ ones. And the two cultures are
> very definitely at odds. I don't see such drastic changes in
> _either_ so as to be able to avoid these confrontations, and it's
> not good for source material development, either. I don't believe
> it's a question of "_Will_ the wars happen"; I believe that it's a
> question of "_When_" and "_Where_" they will happen.
>
> T::>I'm not sure from reading Path of Tears to what extent the RC
> ::>tries to force a One True Way on the worlds it integrates. The
> ::>Federalist faction seems to believe in promoting diversity of
> ::>cultures/political systems within the Coalition while the
> ::>Feudal Technocrats seem to want to squeeze everyone they re-contact
> ::>into their mould. At the moment there is no clear indication which
> ::>faction will come to dominate the Coalition. The RC is definitely
> ::>opposed to any government/society which routinely tortures, murders,
> ::>enslaves and otherwise oppresses its' citizens on a daily basis or
> ::>which regards outsiders as 'the enemy' or technology as 'evil'. I
> ::>think that a lot of the people in the Regency would also agree
> ::>with that. It still leaves a lot of room for different kinds of
> ::>government. I think that the RCers think that the attitude of
> ::>the Third Imperium towards its' member worlds was 'so long as
> ::>you pay your taxes, we don't care what you do to your people' or
> ::>'he may be a bastard, but he's our bastard'. This kind of laissez-
> ::>faire, amoral attitude is definitely out the window.
>
> Consider what happened with technological development here on
> Terra. Whatever nation/empire, throughout history, was currently
> on top, spread its culture throughout the "known world". First
> the Greeks, then the Romans, then the Italians and French, then
> the Spanish and Portuguese, then the English and Germans, then the
> Soviets and Americans. With technological dominance and higher
> education comes cultural dominance as well. It's not a question
> of _forcing_ the cultures into the RC or Regency mold; if that's
> what I said or implied, please forgive me. What I was thinking
> was that the dominated cultures would be "exsimilated" into the
> dominant culture, much the way American culture is now pretty much
> global. Yes, there will always be some elements of prior
> cultures, and some of those aspects will be absorbed into the
> dominant culture, but by-and-large, the "lesser" cultures change
> to conform to the dominant.
>
> T::>As far as the Guild is concerned, while it has high ambitions to
> ::>dominate interstellar space I think that it lacks the organisational
> ::>structure to do so, and that faced with an opponent like the Regency
> ::>it will quickly be removed as a power. I think that it poses more of
> ::>a threat to the RC because the RC doesn't have the kind of resources
> ::>at its' disposal that the Regency has, and is spread much more thinly.
> ::>I expect the RC to dispose of the Guild in the next 10 years (unless
> ::>the Guild changes its' structure and becomes much more like a
> ::>government).
>
> One comment. The United States was beaten in Viet Nam by what was
> essentially a guerilla army of "regular irregulars."
>
> T::>The next big plot development we can expect to see concerns the
> ::>Black Curtain. Path of Tears mentions the "Vampire Highway" that
> ::>leads into the Core of the former Imperium (straight to the centre
> ::>of Lucan's territory). Obviously the Virus has been busily at work
> ::>there for the last 70 years building...something. No doubt that
> ::>something will be unleashed on an unsuspecting Universe in the near
> ::>future. I would expect the RC and the Regency to put aside their
> ::>differences and fight this common enemy (anyone remember Fred
> ::>Saberhagen's Berserkers?).
>
> You assume that both will perceive it as an enemy. All we know
> right now is that the feeder leads corewards, and any planet that
> starts to develop is sacked before it gets too far. We thought
> that the RC would be all bad, too, when all we knew about them was
> that they were called "Star Vikings"...
> ==========================================================================
> Jeff Zeitlin [email removed]
> - ---
> ~ QMPro 1.52 ~ If it isn't borken, don't fix it.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of TML Nightly
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