Gentlesophonts:
I'm baaack! (Seems my inability to mail was just a systems glitch.)
From Wednesday night:
James Dening [email removed] writes:
> Anyone else who would like more info on the following, please email me.
> 3D Space;
> Bob McWilliams;1;White Dwarf 72.
Anyone interested in three-dimensional space might like to check out the
newsletter *Melbourne Times*. We're using a three-dimensional setting
for the (non-Imperial) Earth Colonies Campaign that consists of the "Near
Star Map" data from *2300AD* translated to 3D CT/MT hex coordinates.
Cynthia Higginbotham [email removed] writes:
> David Johnson sez:
> >Corsairs may be tiresome but they do not pose a
> >real threat.
>
> Well... (1) Ask the people living near the border (or well within
> it) how they feel about continual hit-and-run guerilla-style raids.
Etc.,
> And don't even bother having an economy. This is a
> bit more than "tiresome".
> Fighting Vargr corsairs is like nailing jello to a wall
A great image (really), but, remember the *JTAS* article "The Ecology of
Piracy on the Spinward Main"? Raiders who hit too hard or too often
`bite the hand that feeds them' by either driving off their `prey' or
inciting the attention of committed police forces. The Vargr know this.
Planet-, or even city-killing attacks will be reserved for war time
situations - which take an organized state. Raiders who are `crazed'
and just destroying for the sake of destruction still need supplies, ship
maintenance, R&R sites, etc. (again, see the *JTAS* article) which provides
a means for *limited* naval forces to deal with them.
The issue of the American military experience in Vietnam is often brought
up as an example of the `difficulties' of dealing with guerrilla forces but,
IMHO, erroneously so. A few nukes, or even heavy conventional air strikes,
into the North Vietnamese supply lines in *China* would have put a quick stop
to Vietcong activities in the South. Now, you're saying, "But the US wasn't
willing to escalate to that level." You're absolutely right - but the Viet-
cong weren't shelling Los Angeles either.
For most folks in the US, the Vietnam war was a `nuisance' (if they paid it
any attention at all) - until their sons started coming home in body bags.
Similarly, Vargr corsairs will be a `nusiance' to the Regency. If some still
hit hard it will only take limited naval forces (remember Elphinstone
chasing renegades in Regina after the 5FW?) to deal with them.
> In Gvurrdon,
> there is at least one multi-subsector TL-15 (!!) nation (The Rukh
> Aeguezz). They could do some damage if they went "on the warpath"
Yes, they could, but these large states have interests that aren't
necessarily served by going to war with the Regency. Considering the inherent
chaos of war the leaders of the larger Vargr states are probably even *more*
reluctant to go to war - the resulting chaos might threaten their very
existence.
> (3) How do you "foster instability in the Extents"?
Primairly through arms sales and other `assistance' to opposing forces. The
US has been doing an `excellent' job of this in Latin America for decades.
> What can you possibly do to them that they
> haven't already done to themselves at one time or another, and learned
> to cope with?
When one of the Regency's clients decides to call the Regent a "hairless,
toothless, clawless puppy" the Regency can continue to supply them with arms
if it serves the Regency's ends. An `insulted' Vargr leader would be forced
to go to war with her `client' in order to preserve her charisma - there's
your inherent instability.
> And what nation(s) do you start with?
The `second tier' states that are envious of the `big dogs'. When they get
to be the `big dogs' you help the next tier - or the former `big dogs' - *ad
nauseum*. What do you get? Ethiopia and Somalia. Iraq and Iran. Pakistan
and India.
Jeff Zeitlin made an interesting clarification on Thursday night about
the threat from the *Virus* through the Vargr border. This makes a great
deal of sense.
> Unfortunately, what was destroyed in Hard Times and the Virus was
> the Imperial interstellar culture. That has been utterly wiped out,
> except in the Regency.
Well, is this an opinion or something written in the GDW `stone tablet'?
My sense is that, after only 70 years, those groups that manage to move
back to the stars are going to be - by and large - descendants of Imperial
culture that somehow managed to lessen the onslaught of the Virus.
> In the pocket empires, and other places that
> are reaching for the stars again, we are seeing the local cultures,
> using the knowledge from the extinct Imperial culture, reach out
> "beyond the extrality fence" for the first time in a thousand years.
Maybe, but after 1000 years of being `homebodies' and then with the *added*
burden of the Virus assault from `out there' what could possibly motivate
such local cultures to venture into space? I believe this sort of pocket
empire will be the exception rather than the rule.
IMHO, the `typical' pocket empire world will be a world that enjoyed a
relatively advanced level of technology during the Imperial era but that
also enjoyed a certain degree of isolation from the Imperial mainstream
(to give it an opportunity to blunt the assault of the Virus) and that also
enjoyed a large degree of self-sufficiency (again to blunt the effects of
the Collapse and to support the rebuilding during TNE). Now, such a world
might not have much of an `Imperial' cultural heritage but it *still* will
have a *technological* cultural heritage.
Ray_Pullar [email removed] writes:
> David Johnson: I feel that the democratic institutions of the
> RC are believable.
> Infact, the locals would have been more inclined to lynch the local
> Imperial representative after all the suffering of the Rebellion and
> then the Collapse (which lends support to your idea of a Revolution -
> but I think that this would have happened in 1130 not in 1180).
I agree on the Revolution and the earlier date but where does the motivation
come to move to democracy? Remember the Imperial nobility were not just
political leaders but held a great deal of the economic assets as well.
When they cut off the head of the local marquise, who gets her 60% share in
the local agricultural operation? Distribute it among everyone? That's
`democratic' but not very efficient. Give it to the board of directors
of the operation? Doesn't that just make `director' a new name for `baron'?
Won't this be the trend anyway because most people are *used* to having
`someone else' make these sorts of decisions?
Think of the American and French Revolutions. Early on, despite their
assertions and our `rose colored' views, the early revolutionaries weren't
very `democratic'. Participation was limited to propertied, white males -
no where near a majority of the total population but pretty nearly a
*totality* of the *economic* interests. It took decades (and subsequent
civil uprisings, some wars) for those initital ideas of `equality' to be
expanded to where we are now.
> I still believe that a strong
> democratic tradition could have existed even despite the rule of the
> Third Imperium. My reasons: the Old Expanses was a part of the Solomani
> Sphere and only re-conquered by the Imperium during the Solomani Rim
> War. The Solomani (especially in the Sphere) are much more inclined
> towards democratic government and the idea of freedom in general. I
> think this cultural belief in self-determination and individual freedom
> would have remained even under Imperial rule.
How long ago was the Rim War? Aren't we talking several centuries? We
don't have much of an `aristocratic' or `monarchic' tradition here in
North America and yet that's a much more recent heritage for us than
`democracy' is in the Old Expanses. Admitedly, the American settlers were
`anti-monarchists' but I doubt many `democrats' were prominent in Old
Expanses society under the Imperium either. How come that wonderful
`assimilation' is going to work for the Coalition when it apparently hasn't
worked for the Imperium?
> I don't agree. It would make more sense, as I see it, for the Regency to
> expand and enlarge *now*, before anyone emerges from behind the Black
> Curtain. The bigger the Regency is, the less likely they are to be
> challenged.
The Regency doesn't (or at least *might* not) know about the Black Curtain.
As far as Norris was concerned a `legitimate' successor might have appeared
in 1140, 1160 or 1180 and yet this successor might *still* have `problems'.
Remember it was the lack of `one clear choice' that led to the Rebellion
and Hard Times in the first place and Norris and the Domain only avoided
becoming embroiled in that mess because they were isolated by the fall of
Corridor. So maintaining that isolation made sense in the early days.
> However with all the democratic changes within the Regency,
> the rest of the political establishment might not be too keen on this.
Well, things seem to keep getting back to that same point: it's only been
70 years. Whatever `democratic' elements have arisen in the Regency aren't
going to be very well entrenched (much less even than in the Coalition).
Remember again, a lot of adults in TNE grew up listening to their grand-
parents telling them about the `good old days' under Strephon.
> I think that Norris would be willing to accept the
> claimant to the throne
I agree. Norris would. Seldrian might. Avery and Seldrian's daughter?
Who knows? Their children? I doubt it.
> while the Regency's population, enjoying its'
> newfound democratic freedom would be opposed to this. Strange.
As *long* as things are going well. Look at Russia.
Glenn Myers [email removed] writes:
> Virus or no Virus, software is never 100% bug free.
Ahhh, don't promote this misconception! Ask the Software Engineering
Institute: if we start `designing' software rather than keep `creating'
it like we've done in the past this doesn't have to be the case. [Sorry,
I've drifted into "alt.design.quality.software" :-) ] [And BTW, I'm
a mechanical engineer who barely understands FORTRAN!]
> BTW, I expect that the natural astrography of Corridor is part of the
> reason why the Regency hasn't reclaimed that area. It forms such a nice
> choke point at which to fight any intruders, Viral or otherwise.
> Besides, I'm sure a lot of resources have been used developing an
> infrastructure capable of withstanding a possible conflict.
Two good points. The Regency may be able to `disinfect' the Virus but
it may be less sure of fighting the Ziru Sirka, Lucan's Imperium or
Dulinor. (Remember, the Regency may not have the NE map of the Imperium.)
> In my campaign set further spinward of the Regency
Care to share some background details? :-)
(???) [email removed] writes:
> David Johnson writes:
> >How would being in possession of *Path of Tears* or any other TNE
> >product better help one to understand these sort of issues except
> >to be able to say, "But GDW says so on page XX"?
>
> You would certainly save us all a good deal of time and space by
> reading an explanation and then commenting on it instead of holding
> forth on a topic in ignorance, waiting for a correction, and then
> replying to the correction, prompting responses (usually more detail
> that you could have read in the first place) before getting to the
> heart of the discussion.
Have I really been `holding forth in ignorance' for `a good deal of time
and space'? Please, let me know and I'll shut up. Maybe. :-)
> Ah, but man is a political animal: if my planet or faction with
> RCES hired say my nephew's group, I won't let you come down overly
> hard on him, nor will I let you publically discipline him as it
> would make me look bad.
This is true, but then a Coalition under these sorts of conditions isn't
very centralized or stable, which means it's not very effective, which
leads to questions like, "The *what* Coalition?" :-)
> Roger Sanger says:
> >Come on guys, lets DEVELOP the background rather than just
> >discuss it!
>
> Sure - as long as you remember the caveat that GDW will ignore most
> of what is said here and will eventually sweep it all away with a
> sourcebook.
In the same post you quoted me from above I wrote:
"It seems to me though that most folks are unwilling to discuss the Regency
much because GDW hasn't weighed in yet with a sourcebook. If this is how
things are going to be then why discuss anything? We can all just wait for
the next sourcebook for GDW to tell us what's going on."
Peace,
David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA