Zhodani and Regency

Gentlesophonts:

From Thursday night, Alexander W. Holt [email removed] replying
to [email removed] writes:

> 1.  In point one you said that the Regency Navy has evolve to using
> different types of ships.
> Most pocket empires (supposedly) will no have squadrons of
> battle riders.

This would seem to me to be a good place for development.  What are the
nature of Regency naval forces?  Rather than focusing on the details of
ship design let's concentrate on tactics, strategy and design philosophies.
Both Ted7(?) and Alex have raised some good points about these issues.
Let's start exploring them.


Steven M Bonneville [email removed] writes:

> After all, the Zhodani Consulate is now humaniti's biggest living
> government, and the Regency is the second largest.

The idea of a Zhodani-Regency alliance is intriguing.  (If the Federation
and the Klingons can do it in 80-some years why not the Zhos and the
Denebians?)  Scott Kellog has been posting some *very* original stuff on the
K'kree.  Maybe we could do something similar for the Zhodani and *finally*
flesh them out into `real' human beings.  Except for the Imperial psionic
bias that we all bought into back in the heydays of the 5FW, can anyone
come up with a good reason not to see the Zhodani in a postive light?


Jeff Zeitlin [email removed] writes:

>   In the event that Norris dies without a successor, the more
>   opportunistic factions in the _other_ states may prevail in their
>   counsels, and the Spinward States would then go down together.

Certainly Norris anticipated this point and has made arrangements for his
successor.  While I suspect this is (will be?) Seldrian what's to stop
Norris (or his successors) from holding an election for the successor
*prior* to the demise of the current Regent?  The current system in
Mexico in which the reigning, er, excuse me, *presiding* President virtually
hand picks his successor might serve as a good model.  Even if elections
were held and it took several months to poll all the worlds in the Regency
a leadership crisis could still be avoided.  (The recent assassination of
the Mexican successor provides an interesting insight into problems with
the `hand picked' option.)

Other alternatives to `hand picked' or `elected' successors also exist.  There
might be a specific chain of command in the event of the demise of the
Regent - a `Vice' Regent or some such thing.  The Sector Dukes of the
old Domain would be good candidates.  The Sector Dukes (Vice Regents?)
might even rule as a quadumvirate until the Regency Moot met to select a
successor.

The point is there are several ways to avoid a leadership crisis and its
inherent instability.

BTW, what is the noble hierarchy in the Regency?  Under the Domain there
were four Sector Dukes under Norris, right?  These still ought to be around.
I know Norris was sometimes referred to as Sector Duke at Regina but at
other times it seemed the Duchess of Mora was the chief duke in the
Spinward Marches.  (Isn't that why Norris's capital is at Mora?)

Maybe we ought to identify these figures as part of the development of
the Regency.  There ought to have been Sector Dukes for the Marches,
for Deneb, for Reft and for the Trojan Reach - each of which also held
a subsector fief.  In the Marches there were Dukes for Regina (which
included Jewell), Vilis, Lanth(?), Rhylanor (which included Aramis),
Lunion, Mora, Glisten and Trin's Veil.  What about Deneb, Reft and
Troy?  Which subsectors managed to survive the Vargr incursions, the
Aslan invasions, and the onslaught of Virus?

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

David Johnson writes:

>This would seem to me to be a good place for development.  What are the
>nature of Regency naval forces?  Rather than focusing on the details of
>ship design let's concentrate on tactics, strategy and design philosophies.

I'm not going to delve deeply into this pandora's box, just note that
one thing the Regency will need are fast reaction fleets to deal with
a direct attack by a Vampire Fleet.  (That may be how Trin got hit...
a fleet attacked and one got through in the confusion.  Since Trin is
so deep in the Regency, I wonder if it got any other places on the way.)

>BTW, what is the noble hierarchy in the Regency?  Under the Domain there
>were four Sector Dukes under Norris, right?  These still ought to be around.
>I know Norris was sometimes referred to as Sector Duke at Regina but at
>other times it seemed the Duchess of Mora was the chief duke in the
>Spinward Marches.  (Isn't that why Norris's capital is at Mora?)

Deneb is a bit odd.  First the usual lowdown.  Under a domain archduke
were the subsector dukes.  In most sectors, the senior subsector duke
at the sector's seat of government was considered the sector duke, and
had slightly more respect.  Under them came the counts, who ran two
or three world counties, and under them the marquis who ran individual
worlds.  Sometimes frontier positions seem to have been held by lower
ranking nobility than usual, or lay vacant.

We know who the sector dukes in the Regency were in the late 1120s.

SPINWARD MARCHES: Duchess Elane Shankarr Muudashir of Mora
                  Born: 1095.  Succeeded: 1121.
                  Matriarch of Mora.  Probably Marquise of Mora.
                  [MTJ #2, "DIS News Briefs", p.3]
DENEB:  Duke Aleksandr Lagaashinga of Deneb
        (No other info avaiable.  Know that he's sector duke since
         Deneb is clearly identified as sector capital in the UWPs).
        [MTJ #3, "DIS News Briefs", p.97]
TROJAN REACH:  Duchess Sharik Arcadia of Gazulin
               Career marine.  Promoted to sector duke in 1118
               in the wake of the suicide of Duke Alexander Quinn
               of Tobia, after its fall to the Aslan.  Since
               Pax Rulin is administered from Spinward Marches/Glisten,
               she is also probably the *only* duke in Troy.
               [TD #20, "Trojan Reach Library Data", p.29]
               [Pax Rulin info from Adv. 4 _Leviathan_]
REFT:  Irrelevant.  The capital of Reft is at Cyril/Moibin, on
       the Ilelish side of the rift.  The "provincial capital"
       on the Deneb side is at Lintl/Vestus, and really was only
       a glorified subsector capital which had all governmental
       duties for Vestus, Macon, and Usher subsectors (A, B, and
       E).  Macon and Usher don't have central capitals of their
       own.  [TD #20, "Reft Sector Overview"]

Duchess Elane is most likely still in power in 1201, since the
Matriarchs seem to be long lived, if her predecessor is any example.

On the Spinward Marches capital:

For a long time, everyone simply assumed it was Regina, or maybe
Rhylanor.  Part of the reason is because of how large the Duke
of Regina loomed over the area during the 5FW back in the days
of Classic Traveller.  Mora was first identified as sector capital
in _Spinward Marches Campaign_, but not many people noticed,
especially since the supplement was chock full of typos and about
half lifted from the old _Spinward Marches_ and _Citizens of the
Imperium_ supplements (although the Citizens section was so screwed
up by typos as to be worthless).  Since the back story of the sector
says Mora was settled first, in 60, it makes sense that it's sector
capital.  The main reason the domain capital is also at Mora is
that it is near the center of the Regency -- Deneb is too far to
trailing, especially with Corridor closed.  The fact that it was
already a sector capital didn't hurt, either.

As archduke, Norris can only appoint new knights and baronets, but no
peers.  This could cause a problem.  Norris used to have an Imperial
Warrant from Strephon that would have allowed him to create peers
subject to the review of the emperor, but Strephon got "killed"....
Doubtless the Regency has developed some sort of workaround as part
of the First Regent job, for now.


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Steven M Bonneville writes:
>After all, the Zhodani Consulate is now humaniti's biggest living
>government, and the Regency is the second largest.

David Johnson writes:
}The idea of a Zhodani-Regency alliance is intriguing.  (If the
}Federation and the Klingons can do it in 80-some years why not the
}Zhos and the Denebians?)  Scott Kellog has been posting some
}*very* original stuff on the K'kree.  Maybe we could do something
}similar for the Zhodani and *finally* flesh them out into `real'
}human beings.  Except for the Imperial psionic bias that we all
}bought into back in the heydays of the 5FW, can anyone come up
}with a good reason not to see the Zhodani in a postive light?

Ahem.  Thank you.  But as I have often said, there is a reason why
my nickname is "2G"  I hope to correct miss-spellings of Kellogg.
[Come on!  It's on your breakfast table every dang morning! :-]

As to the Zhodani not being "Real" human beings, I haven't done
that yet for TNE.  However, if you want to read about "Real"
Zhodani in action, I suggest that you go back to the archives and
find the (unfinished) chapters of "The 4.5th Frontier War".  A
series of adventures I wrote (and perhaps one day will finish)
involving a crew of Zhodani wandering about in Iakr Sector (Foreven
to you Imps) during 1102, trying their damndest to solve a mystery
while the Spinward Marches boils up to a war fever.

[Basically, a SORAG "True Believer" defector was trying to ignite
the 5th Frontier War by playing the Zho navy off the Imperials]

Yeah, I know I wrote it, so I'm at risk of blowing my own horn, but
it is the ONLY treatment of the Zhodani I have ever seen that takes
them seriously to my satisfaction.  One day, perhaps I'll get
around to writing up the last 2 chapters.  Not at the moment
however.

So what are the Zho's up to now?  Well, as Steve noted, they have
"Won" the series of frontier wars by default.  The Imperium is
gone.  The Regency is not a threat to them.  As we have learned in
MegaTrav, the Zhos didn't really want to try to absorb the entire
Imperium after all.  All they wanted was to scare the Imps into
never invading the Consulate.  Now they never will.

However, it would indeed appear that the Zhos will absorb the
Regency after all.  Though, not militarily.  As has been noted, the
Regency now has begun to accept psionics.  You can be a psi in the
regency and *not* get lynched.  This will of course weaken the
interest of the Zho military (and the common Zhodani) who wanted to
make the galaxy safe for psionics.  The Regency just isn't the
threat it used to be.

What they will do is to increase trade with the Regency and thus
expand their interests in it.  That will provide a broader power
base from which they can begin to move the Regency toward the
acceptance of a Psionic upper class, and when that notion is
accpeted, they will mold and promote that psionic class toward the
image of the Zhodani psionic "noble".

Note the manipulations already ongoing:  The Regency is not only
accepting psionics, we are told is becoming more and more
democratic.  Remember, the Consulate *IS* a democracy.  [The vote
is limited to the Psionic upper classes.]  But it is democratic.
It won't be long before the citizens of the Regency will look
toward their psionic citizenry to start molding their society.  [We
look to psych/sociologists for social planning, wouldn't one tend
to give more creedence to a psych/sociologist who is also a
telepath?]

As to what's going on in the Consulate?  Well, mostly a
technological explosion.  The Consular Navy needs weapons to fight
the virus.  There will undoubtedly have to be Regency cooperation
to keep the virus at bay.  Thus there will be some technology
transfers, but there don't need to be that many.  The Consulate in
1120 was a TL14 Borderline TL15 society.  Zhdant (the homeworld was
the only TL15 world in the Consulate).  That technology will be
called upon to fight the virus.  The jump from TL14 to TL15 will be
a very swift one.  My guess is that in 1200 the Consulate would
have several TL 15 worlds near the borders of the Virus (Spinward
Marches) and on those worlds will be a growing development of TL16
items.  Thus the Consualte of 1200 will be about on par with the
Impierium of 1120.

I would also speculate that the cooperation of the Regency in
fighting the virus (shared intelligence at the very very least)
would begin to see some authorizations of TL16 Technology Transfers
from the Imps to the Consulate.

Regency/Consulate Trade?
Well, the Regency is now cut off from Imperial markets.  They need
someone to trade with.  Consulate Traders will find growing
acceptance in Regency markets as the psionic prejudices wear away.
[Investors!  Put your stocks in inter-face trade lines!]

Take a look at history:
WWII.  The US provided arms, equipment, & manpower to the fight,
while never being actually attacked at its industrial sites.
Result:  The US became the major industrial force on the planet and
dominated world politics for many years before the Russians began
pushing to compete in the cold war.  The standard of living in the
US was the highest in the world for years after the war.

The Consulate has never been hit by the virus and is providing
arms, equipment and manpower to fight off the virus at the
Regency's borders.  Think what it must be like at home in the
Consulate...

Back to Zhodani Technology:
Someone suggested (I forget who) that the Zhos would pick up the
neural interface technology from the Imperials.  Well, note that
the "Neural Jack" as described is only TL13.  The Zhos already have
it.  Indeed Neural Interface Technology would be a LOT easier for
the Zhodani.  Consider:  To make a DNI (Direct Neural Interface)
you need a hyperaccurate map of the human brain.  Not only that,
but of the individual's brain in particular.

Imagine how much easier would this be if you are a telepath.

The Zhodani probably developed Neural Interface Tech at a much
relatively lower level than the Imperials.  I'd say that a DNI
would be TL 11 or 12 (possibly even lower) to the Zhodani.  Indeed,
while the Zhodani may have been TL14 overall in 1120, their psionic
technologies would be somewhere around TL16-17-18 relative to the
Imperials.  [That means Neural Rifles, Neural Scanners etc.]  Note
that while only a fraction of Imperial worlds had a psi-institute,
*EVERY SINGLE PLANET* in the Zhodani Consulate had at least one.
They are way ahead of this game and will stay that way.

Summary:
The Zhos appear to be manipulating the Regency just as the Hivers
are doing so to the RC.  With the huge resources of the Consulate
vs the Regency, plus the fact that the Consulate is far less
exposed to Virus.  There will be little to keep the Consulate from
doing whatever they wish.  But they don't need or want a war.

They've already won.

That won't stop them from expanding their interests tho.

Scott 2G Kellogg

Gentlesophonts:

Steven M Bonneville [email removed] writes:

> (That may be how Trin got hit...
> a fleet attacked and one got through in the confusion.  Since Trin is
> so deep in the Regency, I wonder if it got any other places on the way.)

Hey, wait a minute!  That couldn't have happened because there's no way
Norris could have hid what happened to these `other' planets, right?  ;^)

> We know who the sector dukes in the Regency were in the late 1120s.
>
> SPINWARD MARCHES: Duchess Elane Shankarr Muudashir of Mora

Okay, how influential is Duchess Elane?  Can anyone identify the dukes
`under' her?  Did I get the subsectors right: Regina, Vilis, Lanth,
Rhylanor, Lunion, Mora, Glisten and Trin's Veil?  Does Norris still
hold the Duchy of Regina or does Seldrian (or someone else, Branj?)?

> DENEB:  Duke Aleksandr Lagaashinga of Deneb

So in TNE it's still Duke Aleksandr or else his descendant.  What are the
subsector duke positions in Deneb?  Are there some `dukes-in-exile' for
subsectors overrun by the Vargr or Virus?  Such folks would make great
candidates for the House of Nobles.

> TROJAN REACH:  Duchess Sharik Arcadia of Gazulin

Yes, I remember her now.  Did *TD* mention her rank?  That would give
some indication of her age.  Again, either she or her descendant ought
to still be around.  Again, what duchies existed in Troy?  How many are
now just `duchies-in-exile'?

> REFT:  Irrelevant.  The capital of Reft is at Cyril/Moibin

Good point.  Won't the Duke/Duchess of Vestus be of greater precedence
than your average duke?

The question remains: where do these sector dukes and all the subsector
dukes fit into the Regency power structure?  Did Norris bring all his
courtiers from Regina with him to Mora when he became Archduke (like
Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton) or did he take advantage of the existing
court structure at the sector capital at Mora?  While the sector court
at Troy might have been minimal, the Deneb sector court under Duke
Aleksandr ought to have been on the same order as that at Mora, right?

I think we're beginning to see that the whole idea of the Regency and
of any `democratization' in the Regency rests upon much more than just
Norris.

> Part of the reason is because of how large the Duke
> of Regina loomed over the area during the 5FW back in the days
> of Classic Traveller.

Hmmm, for a `simple naval intelligence officer with no intentions of
ruling' Norris seems to have developed an interesting pattern of enhancing
his own importance.  (And before anyone starts claiming I'm heading some
anti-Norris effort let me say for the record that I really like the guy.
I just don't see him as `simple' or merely `benevolent' at all.  He's the
sort or politician *extraordinaire* that would put Machiavelli, Richelieu,
Larry Atwater, and James Carville to shame!)

> Doubtless the Regency has developed some sort of workaround as part
> of the First Regent job, for now.

Another good point.  An Archduke can't establish new peers but a Regent
might establish all sorts of `governors' and other administrators to help
him carry out his duties.  (Don't these sorts of figures appear in the
`future history' side bars in TNE?)  [FACT ALERT: I don't have TNE!]
Might this be some of the source of the `democracy' in the Regency?
How will the traditional peerage react to such a move?

I'm *really* enjoying this!

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

David Johnson [email removed] writes:

>Okay, how influential is Duchess Elane?

Pretty influential, and probably *very* conservative.  She's
the hand-picked successor of Delphine, who seems to have been
the right-wing leader in the Marches since 1014.  Mora was the
industrial hub of the Marches...now it's also the political
hub of the whole Domain.

>> TROJAN REACH:  Duchess Sharik Arcadia of Gazulin
>
>Yes, I remember her now.  Did *TD* mention her rank?  That would give
>some indication of her age.  Again, either she or her descendant ought
>to still be around.  Again, what duchies existed in Troy?  How many are
>now just `duchies-in-exile'?

No, we don't know a lot about her.  As far as I can tell, Troy only had
two duchies for three subsectors: Tobia and Gazulin, Pax Rulin being
under the control of Glisten.  [Although I once ran a high-powered
campaign that put one in Egyrn...my Imperium had picked up a vacant
world there.  They put a duke there because (1) they wanted more worlds
in the area, and (2) his enemies at Court wanted him out of the way.
Fun, but *not* canonical.]

>Good point.  Won't the Duke/Duchess of Vestus be of greater precedence
>than your average duke?

Probably.  I didn't look real close, but Reft may only have two duchies
also, Moibin and Vestus.  Furthermore, the text in TNE suggests that
the Regency has extended its' power out into Old Islands and New Islands
subsectors in the middle of the Great Rift, as seen on the "Black Curtain"
map.  (Mostly, there are supposed to be outlying listening posts and
RQS bases there.)  Classic Traveller players may remember those worlds
from _Trillion Credit Squadron_.  Lots of little human governments of
Terran descent (21st century STL, pre-contact), and substantial fleet
manufacturing capability at about TL12.  I think they were supposed to
have unified in 1106, after TCS.  (Wonder if Dulinor bought part of
his last fleet from them?)

Other interesting notes from TNE:  apparently Trin wasn't the only
world hit by a "leaker", just the most notorious (maybe none of the
others got to a hi-pop world.)  Also, at the beginning of the crisis,
the Regency sent some fleets to Riftspan Reaches to help the Aslan
close and seal the jump-5 route.

Oh, and about the side-bar "Regency Sector Governor" from TNE.  Watch
the dating system.  If they're using New Era dates in notes from
somewhere, that seems to me an indication that there's been contact
and perhaps some level of unification with the Reformation Coalition,
since the RC developed the New Era dates.  So far, this suggests
a reunification in the 1240's, although the worst seems to be over
before then.  (As in the "Eneri Kuniholm" entries.)



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                                 |
 [email removed]                 | **WHAM!!!**
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Gentlesophonts:

First, another appeal for non-traditional background.
From Tuesday night, Les Howie [email removed] writes:

> I have never used the GDW universe

Care to share any background details? :-)


Now on to more Regency background.
Steven M Bonneville [email removed] writes:

> >Okay, how influential is Duchess Elane?
>
> Pretty influential, and probably *very* conservative.

Okay, so she's probably not much for this new `democracy'.  As *the*
autocrat she's the most likely leader of the Aristocratic bloc.  Maybe
this bloc is called `Muudashirites'?  You might expect Duke Aleksandr
of Deneb to be prominent in this bloc as well.

> >> TROJAN REACH:  Duchess Sharik Arcadia of Gazulin
>
> No, we don't know a lot about her.

Okay, but as a newly-elevated noble who had a career as a marine one
might expect her to be more egalitarian than the typical aristocrat.
A candidate to lead the Democratic bloc?  Anyone for `Arcadians'?

BTW, if Sharik succeded Duke Alexander of Tobia as Sector Duke of Troy
then doesn't that mean that the Duchy of Tobia is vacant?

> As far as I can tell, Troy only had
> two duchies for three subsectors: Tobia and Gazulin, Pax Rulin being
> under the control of Glisten.

Okay, we've got we've got ten duchies so far (Regina, Vilis, Lanth,
Rhylanor, Lunion, Mora, Glisten, Trin's Veil, Gazulin and Vestus)
plus whatever remains in Deneb.  Can anyone help there?

Let's say Seldrian is Duchess of Regina (which includes Jewell), Elane
holds Mora and Sharik holds Gazulin.  We've established the Duke (male
or female, in all cases) of Vestus as being of greater precedence due
to the larger duchy.  Similar cases would exist for the Duchies of Rhylanor
(Aramis) and Glisten (Pax Rulin in Troy and parts of District 268 right?).

So far, the Regency nobility breaks down as:

The Regent (and possibly Archduke of Deneb, especially if Avery *is* a clone
            of Strephon, the Aledon's might want to retain the Archduchy)
Duchess of Mora, Elane
Duke of Deneb, Aleksandr or his heir
Duchess of Gazulin, Sharik or her heir
Duchess of Regina, Seldrian (or instead Branj or an Aledon neice or nephew?)
Duke/Duchess of Glisten
Duke/Duchess of Rhylanor
Duke/Duchess of Vestus
More prominent Dukes/Duchesses in Deneb
Duke/Duchess of Lunion
Duke/Duchess of Trin's Veil
Duke/Duchess of Vilis
Duke/Duchess of Lanth
Remaining Dukes/Duchesses in Deneb

And finally, just to stir the pot:

> Oh, and about the side-bar "Regency Sector Governor" from TNE.  Watch
> the dating system.  If they're using New Era dates in notes from
> somewhere, that seems to me an indication that there's been contact
> and perhaps some level of unification with the Reformation Coalition,
> since the RC developed the New Era dates.  So far, this suggests
> a reunification in the 1240's, although the worst seems to be over
> before then.  (As in the "Eneri Kuniholm" entries.)

How do we know this `Sector Governor' is from the *Domain of Deneb*
Regency?  [FACT ALERT: I don't have TNE!]

Peace,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas USA