Misc. Questions

A thread of 5 messages, 16 May 1994 to 19 May 1994, in the order they were sent.

#7575 Misc. Questions

                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                      Date:  Sent on: 16-May-1994 12:18pm
                                      From:  Alistair Langsford
                                             LANGSFORD ALISTAIR
                                      Dept:  Information Services
                                      Tel No:289 7870

TO:  Remote Addressee                     ( _traveller@engrg.uwo.ca )


Subject: Misc. Questions

All I need is the air that I breathe...
- ---------------------------------------

One of the hazards of space travel is going to be running out of breathable
    air. When considering a particular 'scene' for a scenario I was
    planning, I realised I had no good idea of how long it takes a person
    to use up the available air in a sealed room. So, some questions for
    the list.

Imagine you are in a sealed room. How long does it take a person to die
    because the air gets bad - and why? Is it lack of Oxygen, or the
    presence of impurities?

If the room is filled not with air, but with Oxygen only:
- -   what atmospheric pressure should it be at to be safe? I believe that if
    the pressure is too high the atmosphere promotes any sort of minor
    spark into a serious fire/explosive hazard.

- -   how long before a typical human unfortunate dies from bad air in this
    scenario.

Some questions on firearms...
- -------------------------------

 ..   At what tech level can you build guns out of non metallic materials?

 ..   What sort of non metallic materials are possible - plastics, carbon
    fibre, or what?

 ..   At what tech level can you build caseless ammo and weapons to use it?
    And when does the result become as practical as weapons using cased
    ammo?

Note:
    I'm interested in both real world comments as well as comments based on
    whatever is covered in (CT/MT/TNE) Traveller rules.

Alistair,
[email removed]

#7592 Re: Misc. Questions

> All I need is the air that I breathe...
> ---------------------------------------
>
> One of the hazards of space travel is going to be running out of breathable
>     air. When considering a particular 'scene' for a scenario I was
>     planning, I realised I had no good idea of how long it takes a person
>     to use up the available air in a sealed room. So, some questions for
>     the list.
>
> Imagine you are in a sealed room. How long does it take a person to die
>     because the air gets bad - and why? Is it lack of Oxygen, or the
>     presence of impurities?
>
> If the room is filled not with air, but with Oxygen only:
> -   what atmospheric pressure should it be at to be safe? I believe that if
>     the pressure is too high the atmosphere promotes any sort of minor
>     spark into a serious fire/explosive hazard.
>
> -   how long before a typical human unfortunate dies from bad air in this
>     scenario.


At the a high atmospheric pressure oxygen becomes toxic.  This is the reason
Scuba divers use compressed air instead of oxygen.  At normal pressure the
fire risk from an all oxygen atmosphere is very high.

The breathable air in a room is converted to bad by a person consuming
oxygen which is replaced by carbon dioxide.  Eventually the lowering oxygen
levels will cause a person to die from oxygen starvation.  At which point
I don't know but the amount of oxygen used by a person depends upon their
activity rate.  By doing little the air in a room can be made to last longer.

Away to extend the time a person has in a sealed room is to have someway
to replace the oxygen.  If there was a bottle of compressed oxygen in the
room it could be opened occasionaly to increase the oxygen levels.  This
may have to be done carfeully if there is no gravity in the area.  If a valve
on a bottle of compressed gas is broken, the bottle can smash through brick
walls.


- --
**************************************************************************
*  David Hoey          * Computer Science, Northern Territory University *
*  [email removed] * Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia           *
**************************************************************************

#7619 Re: Misc. Questions

[email removed] writes:
> If the room is filled not with air, but with Oxygen only: - what
> atmospheric pressure should it be at to be safe? I believe that if
> the pressure is too high the atmosphere promotes any sort of minor
> spark into a serious fire/explosive hazard.

Humans are used to breathing area that is 80% N2, 20% O2. The air
pressure they breathe it at is 14.7 lbs/in^2. The partial pressure of O2
is about 0.20 * 14.7 lbs/in^2, or about 2.9 lbs/in^2. This is the
theoretical minimum air pressure that humans can sustain while still
being able to get adequate oxygen supply to their cells. The practical
minimum air pressure, however, tends to be higher than this -- for one
thing, altitude sickness may set in at this low a pressure (bodily
fluids filling up the lungs). Also, pure O2 is only wise for short
periods as it tends to oxidize the linings of one's lungs. I believe
that astronaut's space suits have them running about at 4-5 lbs/in^2,
and the cabins of early space craft at around 6-7 lbs/in^2.

I think the shuttle uses a O2/N2 mix that approximates earth atmosphere
at sea level. All that inert N2 adds a lot of weight but makes the
astronauts much more comfortable.

James

#7639 Re: Misc. Questions

Well, my message appears to have been eaten by the TML mailer
daemon.

> Imagine you are in a sealed room. How long does it take a person to die
>     because the air gets bad - and why? Is it lack of Oxygen, or the
>     presence of impurities?

The time depends on the size of the room, who is breathing, and
whether they are conserving their air.  Normally about 4% of
the air is converted from oxygen (O2) to carbon dioxide (CO2)
per lungful, but this may change as the ratio changes.

Normally there is 20-21% O2 in the air, humans need at least
half that to survive.

CO2 is poisonous, however.  I heard once that CO2 poisoning
would kill you before O2 deprivation would in this situation.
This may have only been under pressure, however.

There are easy ways to neutralize the CO2, however.  Divers
that use recycled air do this (supplementing with additional
O2).  There are also ways to convert it back to O2 (I think
submarines do this now).

> If the room is filled not with air, but with Oxygen only:
> - -   what atmospheric pressure should it be at to be safe? I believe that if
>     the pressure is too high the atmosphere promotes any sort of minor
>     spark into a serious fire/explosive hazard.

Any room filled with O2 is a fire hazard.  The O2 doesn't
actually explode, but it promotes burning of anything else
in the room.  As the pressure increases, this effect will
increase, so that more and more becomes vulnerable, but...

The real hazard is that pure O2 is deadly at ANY kind of
pressure above 1 atmosphere.  Pure O2 will allow you to
breathe at a LOWER pressure, however.

> - -   how long before a typical human unfortunate dies from bad air in this
>     scenario.

I don't think the CO2 poisoning effect would be diminished
(it might actually be worse, since there will be more O2 to
convert).  Therefore, no longer than before.

It's a bit complicated to determine exactly how long the
unfortunate has.  Partial pressures determine if the air
is breatheable and/or poisonous.  5% CO2 at 2 atmospheres
is as poisonous as 10% CO2 at 1.  Less O2 is also needed
at higher pressures, and even 20% O2 can become poisonous
if the pressure gets high enough.

As a rough rule of thumb, you could divide the volume of
air in the room by the volume of a lungful of air.  This
is how many lungfuls would convert 4% of the air from O2
to CO2 (alter this 4% number drastically based on activity
level--perhaps 1-10%?).  At one atmosphere, the air will
be unbreatheable when the O2 drops to 10% or the CO2 rises
to its toxicity level (whatever that is).

Increasing pressure would help prevent O2 deprivation
(assuming the O2 partial pressure doesn't reach toxic
levels), but it would not reduce the CO2 poisoning effect.

,-----------------.
|Gerald S Williams|
|[email removed]|
`-----------------'

      _  |     ____/    _  |
     /   /    /        /   /
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 AT&T DSP tools development

#7654 Atmos. Pressure

                       Subject:                               Time:8:09 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          Atmos. Pressure                        Date:5/19/94
James T Perkins [email removed] wrote:

>Humans are used to breathing area that is 80% N2, 20% O2. The air
>pressure they breathe it at is 14.7 lbs/in^2. The partial pressure of O2
>is about 0.20 * 14.7 lbs/in^2, or about 2.9 lbs/in^2. This is the
>theoretical minimum air pressure that humans can sustain while still
>being able to get adequate oxygen supply to their cells. The practical
>minimum air pressure, however, tends to be higher than this -- for one
>thing, altitude sickness may set in at this low a pressure (bodily
>fluids filling up the lungs). Also, pure O2 is only wise for short
>periods as it tends to oxidize the linings of one's lungs.

A 1960's era Rand Corp. published study "Habitable Planets" covered this issue,
among others, in some detail.  It may be avaliable in large university
libraries, it was at my university.  It is recommended reading for anyone
interested in what type of planets humans could live on.  It has been over 5
years since I last checked it out and I can not recall any details but it
provides upper and lower limits of oxegen, atmos. pressure, temp etc.

If anyone has easy access to a university library a short summary of its
conclusions would be beneficial to the mailing list.

Kevin Mc Carthy