FF&S: Broken Daedalus Drive?

A thread of 2 messages, 23 May 1994 to 25 May 1994, in the order they were sent.

#7732 FF&S: Broken Daedalus Drive?

Recent Excursions Into _Fire, Fusion, & Steel_.

Ok, I take back what I said about proofreading, here's a *real*
doozy....

Recently, for whatever reason, I looked into designing a ship
capable of interstellar flight with a payload of five billion
tons, using FF&S.  (A *huge* payload.  Some of the CT referees
out there who liked FASA may know where my number is coming
from.)  So I checked out drive systems.

FTL travel works great...a ship with jump-1, and able to jump
three times without refueling, uses 32% of its internal volume
for drive systems, including fuel, as would any other large
jump-1 ship.

STL travel stinks.  And it revealed a *major* bug in the FF&S
rules.  At tech-9 and above, the best options are the fusion
rocket and the Daedalus drive.  Supposedly, the Daedalus drive
is a better choice; "the engines [have] a lower thrust-to-mass
ratio than a conventional fusion rocket, but provide fuel
efficiency about one order of magnitude higher." (p. 74)

#$**$%^@!  <This is a family mailing-list.>  :)

Per cubic meter of maneuver drive: (in metric tons)

                  THRUST       FUEL USE  ...fuel per ton of thrust
 Daedalus drive: 1.5 ton   0.00050 ton/hr.     0.000334 ton/hr
 Fusion rocket   9.0 ton   0.00035 ton/hr.     0.000039 ton/hr
 HEPlaR drive:  33.4 ton   0.02917 ton/hr.     0.000873 ton/hr

Figures are rounded.  HEPlaR figures include the required fusion
power plant in the drive's cubic meter, here assumed to be at
tech-10, are included for comparison with the tech-9 drive systems.
The advantage of a higher thrust-to-mass ratio is that your engine
is smaller.  HEPlaR fuel use doesn't improve...but the engines
get smaller.

The Daedalus drive is an order of magnitude *worse* in fuel
efficiency than the conventional fusion rocket!!!  Combined
with its' worse thrust-to-mass ratio, the engine is fairly
worthless.

Of course, maybe fuel efficiency isn't the issue...a big fusion
rocket isn't exactly a healthy thing to be around.  But that
wasn't the selling point in FF&S!  At tech-10, the smaller motor
of the HEPlaR probably outweighs the fuel efficiency advantage
of the Daedalus drive.  (It might be worthwhile at late tech-8.
The Daedalus design was originally supposed to be staged, and
that may also help its' prospects as an interstellar drive, but
not as a competitor with the fusion rocket.)  The fuel
efficiency of all of these seems to be a bit short of the kind
of performance I was looking for.  (It *is*, however, quite
realistic.)

This also brings up another interesting point.  It seems to me
that even accounting for the extra mass needed in the motor of
a fusion rocket, it is more efficient than a HEPlaR drive.  This
suggests that there may be an advantage to using fusion rocket
designs in some cases on a military vessel, perhaps as a second
drive system.

Any comments?  Am I reading this wrong?

  Steve Bonneville
  [email removed]

#7763 FF&S: Broken Daedalus Drive?

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[email removed] (Steven M Bonneville) wrote:

>Recently, for whatever reason, I looked into designing a ship capable
>of interstellar flight with a payload of five billion tons, using FF&S.
>(A *huge* payload. Some of the CT referees out there who liked FASA may
>know where my number is coming from.) So I checked out drive systems.

Sorry, 'fraid I missed that one.  Explanation, please? <sound of PCs
quaking in boots>

>STL travel stinks. And it revealed a *major* bug in the FF&S rules. At
>[...]
>higher." (p. 74)

>#$**$%^@! <This is a family mailing-list.> :)

>Per cubic meter of maneuver drive: (in metric tons)

>                 THRUST       FUEL USE  ...fuel per ton of thrust
>Daedalus drive: 1.5 ton   0.00050 ton/hr.     0.000334 ton/hr
>Fusion rocket   9.0 ton   0.00035 ton/hr.     0.000039 ton/hr
>HEPlaR drive:  33.4 ton   0.02917 ton/hr.     0.000873 ton/hr

>[...]

>The Daedalus drive is an order of magnitude *worse* in fuel efficiency
>than the conventional fusion rocket!!! Combined with its' worse
>thrust-to-mass ratio, the engine is fairly worthless.

<bing!> Wrong, but thanks for playing. See FF&S page 70, column 2, para
3, "FC"; "Fuel consumption, in tonnes, per hour per tonne of thrust."
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So the Fusion Rocket line should actually be:

Fusion rocket   9.0 ton   0.00035 ton/hr.     0.000350 ton/hr

This makes the Daedalus slightly better, but still nothing like an order
of magnitude.

What REALLY worries me, though, is the fuel efficiency of AZHRAE
engines.  Has anyone actually tried to design a tech 8 surface-to-orbit
vehicle (NASP or similar)?  As far as I can see, it's not actually
possible to carry enough fuel to make orbit from an Earth-sized world.
(I'll go into details of the calculation only if necessary.)  Does
anybody have a fully-worked design for something of this sort?

>Any comments? Am I reading this wrong?

Only that table heading - and there are still big problems.

Roger ("I only wanted some NASP stats for Dark Conspiracy")

- - --
Roger Burton-West <> Reality hacker <> Economics student <> The Last Romantic
GEcon/CS d? p--- c++++ l u+(-) e+ m++@ s++/+ !n h+ f+ g+(-) w+ t- r+ y?
Mail me at [email removed] (or @uk.ac.ucl) or [email removed]
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Harrisberger's Fourth Law of the Lab:
Experience is directly proportional to the amount of equipment ruined.

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