VDES,NE,GEN: Armor, Editing & Coyns

A thread of 3 messages, 8 June 1994 to 15 June 1994, in the order they were sent.

#7910 VDES,NE,GEN: Armor, Editing & Coyns

In response to Tuesday's batch of messages:

 "Les Howie"  [email removed] says:

 >This is a good analysis.  To tell you the truth, I like the feel of being
 >able to armour my dreadnaughts in proper Fisher fashion.

 I'm afraid I don't get the Fisher reference.

 ...
 >Thats fine.  If there is no magic "torpedo" for frying big ships, torpedo
 >boats do not serve a lot of purpose.

 But your own paragraph on tactics indicates part of their role:
Overloading point-defenses and scrubbing surface features.  The standard
missile in TNE is capable of a lot of mayhem, and will scrub surface
bits off of _any_ ship.  The more ships (of any size) you've got firing
these things at the enemy, the less capable the enemy will be to
respond.
 The levels of armor described in Steven M Bonneville's
([email removed]) post almost, BUT NOT QUITE, return
us to the days of MT, when anything without a meson gun was harmless
above a certain level.  In TNE, with all of a ship's surface features,
it is quite possible to get a mission kill without penetrating the
armor.  Nothing is completely invulnerable.


 In the "Death Star" post, Les provides the following numbers:

 >Lets assume that we can design the weapon with an ROF of 100.
 >
 >This gives us a discharge energy of 2.26e24 Mj.  Working at
 >TL 14 and selecting a tunnel length of 250 m (to give a short
 >range of 10 hexes, the other calculations fall out:
 >
 >3a Effective Tunnel Length 300m
 >3b Tunnel Volume           5.62e24 m^3
 >3c Cross Sectional Area    2.25e22 (a diameter of 8e7 km !!)
 ...

 Even the Ringworld Meteor Defense System is only twice this diameter,
and that's only if you consider the Ringworld itself as the barrel...


 [email removed] (David Johnson) then asks, in response
to my request for editing:

 >>   All I ask is that the participants start editing in a more
 >> ruthless fashion
 >
 >How am I doing?  :-)

 Much better.  Thank you.  (-:


 Finally, Hans Rancke ([email removed]) asks at great length about
Droyne Coyns:

 >Now, going down the list here are the symbols I came up with for each coyn:
 >
 >Void	    Nothing engraved. A blank disc.
 >Soil	    A massive cliff.
 >Air	    A white cloud (ie. the outline of a cloud).
 >Gas	    A black cloud (ie. a filled-in outline of a cloud).
 >Water	    A foam-flecked wave.
 >Fire	    A flame.
 >
 >(Except for the Void and the Fire I'm pretty dissatisfied with these, but
 >they are the best I can come up with. Any suggestions?)

 Perhaps an irregular dirt clod or a symbolic plant growing from the
ground for Soil.  The few Coyn faces we've seen suggest an extremely
symbolic style, IMHO.  The more this can be followed, the more mystified
your players will be.

 >Beast	    A ferocious six-limbed carnivore in mid-jump[6].

 Or perhaps just a paw-print.  Save the ferocious carnivore for the
most dangerous (in your opinion) of the major races that replaced
the animals.

 >Achievement  A brimful cup.
 >Defeat       An empty, tipped-over cup.

 Or a mountain pinnacle with a tiny figure, and a chasm into which a
figure is falling.  The various ways of showing these two are boggling.

 >The Hissayt, Emissyob, Ayvaylk, Bestoy, Nebbay, and Hayyarm are various
 >six-limbed herbivores and omnivores once important to Droyne hunters. I
 >had descriptions of them all worked out, but those notes seems to have
 >dissappeared.

 Since the major races eventually replaced these, they may also represent
specific forms of danger, or specific concerns that the Droyne must
watch for.  Grandfather replaced the original Coyns with new ones that
had different pictures but meant much the same things.  Perhaps the
Droyne once had to worry about the overbearing habits of a particular
omnivore.  This animal had a ever-expanding territorial sense, and was
forever competing with others of its kind to expand that individual
territory.  The Coyn depicting this beast was replaced by the Humaniti
Coyn (or perhaps the Aslan Coyn) as Grandfather's warning.
 Looked at in this way, the Major Race Coyns might also represent
personalities: the Militant (K'Kree), the Meddler (Hivers), the
Curious (Humaniti), the Random (Vargr), and the Migrator (Aslan).
These may still have been represented by animals from Eskayloyt who
embodied these (or other) personality arch-types.


James Kundert [email removed]
              [email removed]

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold

#7935 All: Coyns

James Kundert writes:
>Perhaps an irregular dirt clod or a symbolic plant growing from the
>ground for Soil.

I did think about this, but I like my notion that these six represent the
Droyne concept of elements. If they do then Soil is more representative
of all kinds of ground surfaces than of argricultural land only.

>The few Coyn faces we've seen suggest an extremely
>symbolic style, IMHO.

Some of them, like the flame, the sigma wave, and the ice crystal, yes.
But the 'full-body representation of a human' seem pretty direct. That's
one reason why I decided that the six small pictures of the Droyne castes
could concievably be on the coyns.

>Since the major races eventually replaced these, they may also represent
>specific forms of danger, or specific concerns that the Droyne must
>watch for.  Grandfather replaced the original Coyns with new ones that
>had different pictures but meant much the same things.

Interesting idea. I'll see if I can make something of it.

Steven M Bonneville writes:
>The concept for an Ancient-era coyn for Eskayloyt is interesting, but
>it should probably be expressed as "Homeworld", since presumably at
>that point it had not yet been lost.

Oh sure. But then, the Phoenix presumably wasn't caled Phoenix either.
This is just a translation. Eskaoyt is what a human archeologist would
cal it if he ever figured it out.

>Also, the Ancient period lasted long enough that it's possible that the
>"Human" and "Vargr" coyns were added before the Final War; humans, at
>least, were fairly well integrated into quite a number of Ancient societies

Agreed. I don't think the Vargr would make it  -  at that time they were just
one of a number of projects, confined to one world (In my Traveler universe,
at least, the Ancients tried other animals as subject for uplifting, but most
of them failed and none apart from the Vargr achieved major status (there's
one planet in my Foreven Sector with a race uplifted from otters)). But the
humans could have. However, I decided on the assumption that the coyns were
less important to the Ancients  -  more important than just cards, but not
as important as when the very continuation of your species depend on them.
So I've assumed that they were not modified in Ancient times. Entirely a
matter of choice, of course.

>>3) Grandfather modified the coyns on later visits and introduced the Aslan,
>>   Hiver and K'kree coyns (at least). [_Secret of The Ancients_ p 32].
>
>Note that all six species represented on the coyns are important powers.
>Yaskoydray didn't accidentally pick a "minor" race that didn't make it.
>And of those six, five developed hyperdrive independently.  It makes one
>wonder if he didn't use something like the Zhodani core artifact to peer
>into the future.

For my part I abhor the causality violation implicit in precognition
(unless the precognition is merely really good extrapolation ability).
So I assume that the Aslan coyn didn't get introduced until the Aslans
were already into space in a big way. As far as I'm concerned Grand-
daddy (or, in my universe, the mysterious beings behind the Grandfather
Legend) made one of his every-10,000-year visits to our universe around
- -1000 and updated the coyns at the time.

>Or tamper with _TRS Pathfinder_ so that the Aslan got
>jump drive just before they could blow themselves into oblivion.

That is another possibility that I've considered, but why would Gramps
bother?

>>Voyages         A sailing ship.
>
>Or a STL starship -- the pre-Ancient Droyne did have tech-10 without jump
>drive for thousands of years before the Ancient period; they even had a
>couple of interstellar colonies.

True. But if the six lost coins really was hunting animals then the other
coyns were propably made up at a time when hunting was still important to
the Droyne.

>Also, note some interesting coyn relationships from the table:
>
>Genesis | Aspiration | Sacrifice | Defeat | Death | Achievement
>   The life cycle.  Observe the droyne lesson; one is born, dreams,
>   makes sacrifices (for the common good?), meets eventual defeat,
>   then death, but *then* attains true achievement.  Defeat and death
>   are not the victor.  Is this droyne philosophy peeking out?  Or
>   even a droyne concept of the after-life?  Interesting.

A very interesting idea! However, that would mean that Sacrifice couldn't
depict a krinaytsui ceremony. What could it be instead?

> Darkness | Cold | Noise | Signal | Heat | Light
>   A progressively more positive line of "energy" or "positive entropy".
>   Note how the pairs work.  The "Void--Fire" series also may work like
>   this.

Interesting.

> Beast | Mercenary | Voyages | Justice | Chance | Phoenix
>   Think of this like the "energy" sextet.  It would then pair from
>   closest to most extreme as:  Voyages/Justice, Merc/Chance, Beast/Phoenix.

This one seems a bit strained. But an interesting idea, nonetheless.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     [email removed]
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

#8015 All: Coyns

Scott Kellogg writes:
>In the modern set we have the six castes.  An ancient set might
>have seven.  The seventh caste being that of the ancients
>themselves:  Grandfather and his children.

Quite possible. It was a judgement call wether the coyns had been modified
during the 2000-year Ancients period. Just as it was a judgement call that
the pre-Ancients didn't have more than one set of coyns. I decided in the
end that though coyns had been important during the Ancient period (as
evidenced by their widespread occurence in Ancient installations) they
had not been of such paramount importance as they became when casting
became dependent on them (In fact, a case could be made for the caste
coyns not being original, but that would leave me with six more to make
up).

>While I think that the races idea being representative of their respective
>personality types, I might also suggest that they represent the competition
>that the Droyne face in the present setting.

That's my own theory.

>But at other times, it was not apparant just who were the races
>that Grandfather might want to show to the Droyne.  Example:  Until
>the Aslan hit space, they were a pretty small deal.  Thus, Coyns
>from before that time wouldn't include them.

Right. In my universe Grandfather (Or rather, those mysterious beings who
gave rise to the Grandfather myth) last revised the coyns around -1000.

I hadn't thought much about the interim sets. My players are on a Grand
Tour to a number of previously undetected Ancient sites in the Spinward
Marches (courtsey of a Hiver archeologist with an Ancient artifact) and
one of the stops will be Vanejen where the coyns failed to help the
Chirpers living there regain their ability to caste. Hence I've concen-
trated on the Ancient sets the PCs will find in the sites and the first
coyn set that the Chirpers have kept for 75,000 years (quite a feat, that,
but all their coyn sets have 38 pieces  -  obviously an early variant).
Thanks for your ideas. They would certainly be relevnt for anyone
excavating old Droyne ruins (as opposed to Ancient ruins). Unless, that
is, Grandpop didn't take care to recall each old set every time he put
out a revised edition... ;-)

>The extinct race on Sabmiqys:  The Gya Ks.  Until -8000 when their
>planet was wiped out, these guys must have looked like a potent
>force to Gramps. (TL 17 but no jump drive.) [Challenge]

I've imagined that the criterion Gramps used to choose was a sizable
number of planetary populations. That's why the Aslans are there in
spite of not having developed the jump drive themselves (Or perhaps
Gramps used the Major Race criterion and simply didn't realize that
the Aslans had 'cheated').

>The extinct race on Spica now known as the Hasst'kor:  The creators
>of the Prt'.  Until -10000 when they were wiped out in a war, they
>were doing quite well.  (TL 16) [Challenge]

Did they get off the planet in a big way?

>The Hhkar:  The stogie smoking lizards have been in space since
>- -50000.  (TL10 but no jump drive.)  [Challenge]

Definitely a contender. But why would they be removed again? They are
still out there, aren't they?

>The unnamed alien race in Traveller's Digest #21.  These guys were
>just sort of thrown in without any explanation.  They were
>obviously some kind of servant race for the Ancients.

And propably died out long before -75,000. Anyway, the Ancients propably
had lots of servant races. That's why I don't think the Vargr would be
on any Ancient coyns. Back then they were just one obscure experiment out
of many.

>The Primordials:  These guys who were so dang powerful, they made
>Grandfather look like a doddering senile old Worker Caste.  Then
>they got bored and died.  I almost did too when I read that one.
>[Knightfall]

Primordials? What Primordials? They've never been heard of in my universe.

>Alternately, an ancient set of coyns might have proto-vargr on
>them.  Vargr looked quite different in -300,000.

And any humans quite different too. In fact, the human on the -75,000 coyn
set is IMO a 'homo antiquitus', humans the way they looked in Ancient times.

>Or How about Dolphins?

My premise is that the last revision took place around -1000.

>How about another dead alien race we've never heard of before in Traveller?
>The Krell from Forbidden Planet?  The things from Aliens (JTAS)?  [etc.]

And the Originals, forerunners of the Primordials? And the Firstborn. And
the Firstcomers. Ant the Very-firsters. And the Really-truly-swear-to-God-
we-were-the-firsters. Etc, etc.

>Who knows, maybe in the future we may be seeing coyns with Ael Yael
>on them or Brinn, or Newts?  [The players find a bag of coyns that
>went through a time warp.  From the past, or the future? :-]

OUCH! Causality violation alert! Aroooga! Arooogah! Aroogah! ;-)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     [email removed]
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8