Sorry about this, firends. It's been a bit of a hectic weekend, and I uploaded
part 16 last night without checking to see whether or not I had uploaded the
file below. I hope this won't cause any major confusion.
Rob Dean
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
************
Topic 26 Wed Aug 09, 1989
M.MIKESH at 22:33 EDT
Sub: Publication Development
This is a forum for the discussion of new and upcoming Traveller products.
Participants can offer suggestions and share ideas for projected
publications, or critique new releases and announce errata.
************
------------
Category 11, Topic 26
Message 198 Thu Nov 28, 1991
M.MIKESH at 16:33 EST
Sub: Computer Virus
Lester -
<Jeez, Mike: Diaspora isn't even out of editorial yet. What makes
you say it has a cyberpunk flavor?> Sorry, allow me to clarify.
I didn't mean Diaspora the book, but Diaspora the sector. In
phone conversations with Chuck Gannon, it sounded like GDW would aim
to create a density of support for Diaspora Sector, rather than
scatter it all around the Shattered Imperium (Vland, Daibei, ...).
I didn't know how far the "virus thing" would spread. It could
envelope all of Charted Space, or range only 100 parsecs from, say,
the Hive Federation for all I know. But it seemed a safe bet it would
get Diaspora, so I mentioned that. (Perhaps I should have said 'new
setting'.)
By 'cyberpunk', I don't mean hard core cyberpunk (netrunning and
cyberspace), but fringe elements like the 'dark future'. That GDW
chose a computer virus also seems to suggest cyberpunk.
Like Mark Turnage, I am more confident from your message in the
direction things are taking. I see possibilities. My single biggest
concern remains, though, is if the virus spreads into the Corridor. I
explain why in Tiffany Star 29 which should arrive there Friday.
MIKE
------------
Category 11, Topic 26
Message 199 Thu Nov 28, 1991
LESTER.SMITH at 17:08 EST
Thanks for the clarification, Mike.
Dark future, huh. Hmm. I suppose I ought to be quick to say that while T2K and
D-Con are definitely dark future games, we are NOT taking that turn with
Traveller. In T2K and D-Con, things never really get better, I suppose. Or
more accurately, the PCs can make things better, but they can never really
FIX the way the world is. In Traveller, on the other hand, the Star Viking
era is just one part of the overall history. We have already sketched out a
time line reaching beyond that era and into the future--a time line that will
keep us extremely busy with adventures, sourcebooks, and novels (yes, even
novels) for at least the next decade. Of course, exactly how that time line
proceeds will depend a great deal upon input from Traveller players as it
unfolds.
The important thing, I think, is that we have a plan, and that the plan
excites us and spurs us on. I only wish the things we have in production were
already out and on the shelves.
Later,
Les
------------
Category 11, Topic 26
Message 200 Thu Nov 28, 1991
LESTER.SMITH at 18:27 EST
Greetings again.
I'd like to take a minute to talk a bit about the D20 task system we're
planning for the Traveller revision.
First, the skill or attribute level you have is your target number for an
Average task. Easy is vs. twice that number; Very Easy versus four times the
number. Difficult is vs. half the number; Very Difficult vs. one-fourth. For
instance, a character with a skill level of 8 would be rolling for the
following numbers or less:
Very Easy: 32
Easy: 16
Average: 8
Difficult: 4
Very Difficult: 2
If you don't have any skill at all, you roll percentile dice vs. your
controlling attribute. For instance, an Easy test of Observation, for a
character with no Observation skill but an Intelligence (Observation's
controlling attribute) of 14 would be 28% (percentile roll vs twice the
attribute level).
A roll of 20 always misses (5% chance), and a roll of 1 always hits ( (again a
5% chance), unless the referee decides otherwise.
Now for task philosophy. Mundane, everyday tasks are not rolled for. Does the
character have an applicable skill? Yes? Then he or she succeeds. Every day
tasks with some risk of failure involved become Very Easy or Easy. Success
means PERFECT PERFORMANCE; failure means less than perfect, depending upon how
badly the roll missed by. Example: I make my Navigation skill roll exactly,
and I enter the system right on target; I fail it by 2 points, and I miss my
window by enough distance to make my landing 2 hours late (or some such
determination by the referee).
Now, some people have been arguing that a character with skill level 1 in
Traveller has roughly a 50% chance of succeeding at an Average task, while a
character with a skill level of 1 in T2K2, for instance has only a 10% chance.
That's very true. But given the change in task philosophy, a character from MT
trying for an Average task with a skill level 1 would, when converted to the
new system, be making a Very Easy task roll with a skill level of 2--a 40%
chance of success. Couple this with the fact that new system characters tend
to consolidate their skill points, rather than dispersing them quite as much,
and that reasonable tests can be made vs the related attribute, and I think
you'll find the new system works very nicely. It certainly won't leave a
universe full of bumbling fools, as might have been suspected.
As I've said before, I realize that the new system FEELS different from the
2D6 one. And that's a valid point. But the 2D6 system has some problems of
its own. My own complaints about it have always been that tough tasks price
low skill levels right out of the market, and that doesn't feel right to me
to have no chance at all if a character has at least a modicum of skill. For
instance, a MT character with a skill level of 2 has no chance of succeeding
with with a Difficult task. But the equivalent character in the new system
would have a skill level of 4, needing a 2 or less for a Difficult task and a
1 or less for a Very Difficult task.
Also, the 2D6 bell curve has always bothered me. (I realize I'm treading upon
sacred ground here, for some, but it's the truth.) A +1 modifier does not
mean the same jump for a character with skill 10 as for one with skill 6, for
instance. In the new system, a +1 is a +1 is a +1.
Those are my comments for the moment. Any questions or comments? I'd be happy
to respond.
Sincerly,
Les
------------
Category 11, Topic 26
Message 201 Thu Nov 28, 1991
J.FETTERS1 at 19:27 EST
I don't know if this has been mentioned before (it's hard to keep up with all
this), but how long after the rebellion does this virus event take place?
About the new task system: I always liked the fact that I never needed to buy
any "fancy" dice for Traveller, but, as you said Loren, I was terribly
frustrated when a character had no chance of making a difficult roll.
Does this mean that the new character generation system is non-random?
Somewhat like DC? I wouldn't mind that one bit, since the fact that one can
customize his character in DC appeals to me.
Thats all for now... Jim
------------
Category 11, Topic 26
Message 202 Thu Nov 28, 1991
GDW.SUPPORT [Loren W.] at 20:45 EST
Right, Jim, the new character generation system will be very much like DC's.
How long til the virus? well...that'd be telling...
Loren
------------
Category 11, Topic 26
Message 203 Thu Nov 28, 1991
M.TURNAGE1 at 21:10 EST
Les: Thank you! This is exactly what I've been wanting to see.
Well, regardless of how I turn out to like this, its obvious y'all have
thought this part through. One suggestion, though: When you finally print
this task system, retrofit it to DC and T2k...they've been sorely needing one
(heck, I was about to upload my own to the DC topic...grumble, grumble...:).
I'ts going to take some time to play with this one. I'm assuming skills are
remaining at 1 to 10 ranges, with stats remaining as they were in the old min:
2, max: 15 range. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If you could give some
examples of tasks (especially combat- related ones...that's where the
mechanics of a system sink or swim), that'd be helpful.
I appreciate your concerns with system mechanics and, frankly, agree with
them. Les, its so refreshing to hear a designer that has _any_ real worries
about game mechanics. After some of the kludges that have come out from
various companies (Not to name any names...), at least some thought's going
into this one.
And I'm even more confident after your comments about the direction being
charted...frankly, when this was first announced it sounded VERY arbitrary,
spur-of-the-moment and, well, idiotic. Not anymore.
I think this is gonna be good, folks.
Mark
------------
Category 11, Topic 26
Message 204 Thu Nov 28, 1991
K.BRENNAN2 [Kevin] at 21:28 EST
Les, I can see several problems with the new task system right off. Taking
it point by point:
1) First of all, I suggest that you rename the task levels, possibly using
the MT pattern (Simple, Routine, etc.). Not only does this allow for easier
task conversion from MT stuff, but it eliminates a _very_ confusing aspect of
the current setup.
GM's who look at the pattern you've got there will tend to assume that
Average tasks are average and assign them to tasks that are, well, average,
like the Jumping example you mentioned. In short, most tasks a character
attempts will get an Average difficulty rating.
2) Aside from your mention of a character with an Int of 14 which I assume
means that the stats are getting reworked, I can see problems with the
unskilled tasks. That character will get WORSE at Observation if he acquires
any skill level below 3. While I like the idea of allowing characters to
attempt tasks without necessarily having the skill, should they really be
less competent once they learn something?
3) Having generated several T2K2 and DC characters, I question the
likelihood of them having many skills at level 8. Look at Dara Schwartz in
DC, or both sample characters in T2K2. I see a lot of 2's, 3's and 4's, but
not many 8's. (OK, ONE 7). The other sample character in DC has a few high
skill levels, but is a total klutz outside of Empathy related skills. Are you
sure that we won't get a universe of bumbling fools, especially now that
sucess chances have been reduced still further?
4) Whaddya mean, a character with skill level 2 has no chance of
succeeding at a Difficult task in MT? They need to roll 9+ on 2D6, and that's
only if no characteristic mods are involved, which they usually are. Might
you have been thinking of a Formidable task, perchance? <g>
That's all for now, but I'LL BE BACK...
Oh yeah, one other thing. Be careful with the conversion system. A
character from MT should not be vastly superior or inferior to one in the new
system.
That was a problem in T2K2, where my converted mechanic was better than a
SAS character generated under the new rules. MUCH better. At everything.
And a happy Thanksgiving to all you Americans...
------------
************
Topic 29 Mon Nov 18, 1991
DIGEST.GROUP [Staff] at 00:43 EST
Sub: The WISH List
You know that the new Traveller is coming soon to a game store near you - but
is you had your way, what would you want to see in it?
************
------------
Category 11, Topic 29
Message 64 Thu Nov 28, 1991
W.LIAW [Mac] at 02:29 EST
Another thing to the wish list, the name of the game. I never did like the
name MEGATraveller. It makes the game sound kind of.. silly. It would be great
if the name goes back to Traveller.
Mac
------------
Category 11, Topic 29
Message 65 Thu Nov 28, 1991
S.OLSON4 at 08:16 EST
Oooh, Metlay must have fallen out of bed on Wednesday to spark all that.
On his point #6 about the name "Star Vikings", even if they are sometime
explorers and merchants, that fits exactly with the real Vikings (as a people,
not in the actual use of the term amongst the Scandanavians). It also fits
quite well with Space Viking, in particular the later sections, where actual
reiving wasn't a prime goal.
In response to the question about possible "intimidation", I don't feel
intimidated, but then I also have not really concerned myself with being
published either. I make lots of noise when I find something wrong (any of
the old GEnie hands can report my reaction to FSotSI), and give credit when
it's due.
On Scott Kellogg's stuff -
RE: rifle-3 vs medic-3 - Somewhat true, although not as much as you might
think. Shooting is a skill that is easy to learn up to a certain level (which
varies by the individual) and gets much tougher after that. People seem to
have some level of innate skill (hand-eye coordination and ability to judge
leads and distances) in this sort of thing and progress to that level is easy
and requires only a limited amount of practice. Getting over your innate
ability limit, though, is something that requires a lot of practice. The
people who shoot for Olympic teams and so on are shooting 75-100 rounds a day,
just to stay where they are.....
RE: fuel requirements - Yes, we should, but no, we shouldn't. Clear?
What I mean is that I agree that the fuel consumption is way out of whack for
the high-tech fuel sources. A problem I see is that if we fix it, then we
(again) throw out every old design and start over again. Hmmmmmm. Maybe if
we doubled J-fuel requirements we'd stay something close to current designs,
but still...
Loren, I think you've got critical mass on designers willing to help. Any
suggestions? (Maybe I should test-run this fuel consumption change....)
------------
Category 11, Topic 29
Message 66 Thu Nov 28, 1991
B.BORICH [Kagekiha] at 13:06 EST
***************ALERT!!! ALERT!!!***************
***************TERRORIST AT WORK***************
WELL SORTA,
<Virus> Well I was hoping this was just a rumour that would die. And I'll
leave it at that for now, though Metlay has some points on that area (Seeing
the theory might be believing, I presume the computer designer has taken
courses in alien computer design? The virus will work on all computers TL5-16?
On each different worlds computer systems? On analog and digital systems?
etc.... Let's say computer treatment in Traveller has never been a strong
suite, though the change in MT was a big improvement).
<Scott Kellogg> On DC character generation (which I'm most familiar with,
as versus T2K). It probably takes roughly as long to get a decent character in
the system as it does in MT or Traveller, maybe a tad longer, the advantage
lies in the fact that you can increase the skill points given per year quite
easily, which is probably the first thing I'd do (for DC or MT), as I prefer
characters who are skilled and in their prime (early to mid-30's).
It does take the character a higher skill level to perform well though,
but as the player gets to allot the points in the skill areas available this
problem isn't to bad, and it's easier to pick up skill levels too (at least I
think so).
Okay all, I have sent GDW the TML bundles I have, which is through 212.
<being intimidated by having GDW/DGP on GEnie> Not particularly,
especially as they seem uninterested in the MT section most of the time
(actually DGP being on GEnie was the only reason I signed on in the first
place, HIWG and FASA being the primary reasons I stayed on).
I would have to say once again, that sometimes I wonder if these guys know
what their doing on occasion, I understand some of the problems they've run
into, but others seem to be self-inflicted (FSotI, lack of adventures, MT's
errata). Sometimes I wish they where more activist like FASA and WEG, although
they seem to be doing so with DC currently.
Loren,
What I mean by more activist in the above paragraph, is that FASA and WEG
ask for advice, you guys just seem to sit around and wait for it to drop into
some sort of black hole.
FASA also started a playtest area for selected GEnie users.
It's not that I expect GDW to drop everything and listen to us
exclusively, or even listen to us all the time. But some of the time would be
nice. GDW's attention to the MT area on GEnie has been poor till recently,
DGP's has been to, but at least they had an excuse (that being only part-
timers).
In the meantime the MT area here has been drifting along on the sufferance
of HIWG support (which I think says alot, as it makes the MT area the only
Category that doesn't have the support of the company that makes the game).
If it hadn't of been for HIWG, I probably would have lost interest in
Traveller a long time ago, heading in my own direction as far as Space RPG's
go (which might still not be a bad move).
TRAVELLER in my opinion is still the best overall rules set and universe
around in my opinion (although I still have a large tendency to alter both,
it's the only one around I could survive with as is, well, except for the
errata).
As for Star Vikings, well, let's say it's something I always wanted to do
with the right bunch of players, although on different scales. It sounds like
fun, it sounds exciting, but I'd probably ignore it, if I were going to do
something like that I'd do my own, if I used the current Traveller universe,
I'd probably use one of the previous Long Nights. But that's my problem not
yours, I'd say go for it, I'm always free to ignore it if I want.
In the meantime, I'd like to do what I can to make sure that things work
out okay, currently the only axe I have to grind is to make sure that whatever
rules come out, come out okay.
------------
Category 11, Topic 29
Message 67 Thu Nov 28, 1991
LESTER.SMITH at 17:45 EST
Metlay: Thanks for the post. Thanks for your frankness. I'd sincerely rather
have you saying such things (and with such emotion) out in the open as you
have, than to have someone boiling over inside and polite on the outside.
Let me repeat, though. We're in this business because it's fun. Honestly, I
set aside a career in business writing or teaching writing in order to take
this job, despite the fact that it pays less and takes longer hours. What
makes it worthwhile, though, is that it's fun.
Next, when game rules are less than good, sales slump, no matter how slick
the product looks. And if a company gains a reputation for poor rules, that
reputation becomes very hard to reverse. If you think we're relying upon
selling slickness, you're plain wrong.
Are people intimidated that we're on-line? I certainly hope not. You, Metlay,
seem to perceive some sort of gulf between us and gamers. That's why I keep
insisting that we ARE gamers. The only difference between us is that our
livelihood depends upon games. But game store owners and employees are in the
same boat. Do you perceive a gulf between you and them, as well?
Jeez, if the posts here are those of intimidated gamers, I'd hate to have to
deal with them when they're feeling free to speak openly.
I've said it once, and I'll repeat it: We let our interest in Traveller lapse.
We got involved in other things. But we're back in the Traveller business,
both feet.
We ARE listening to the posts here. Loren and I are both on line just about
daily, and Loren has been capturing these posts and taking them to work, where
we discuss them with Frank, Dave, and Nick. The posts ARE shaping the way
things are being done.
Now, all things considered, Star Viking is coming. The virus is coming. And
we're revising Traveller's character generation and task systems to make them
compatible with our other games. As we see it, T2K2's systems are a natural
outgrowth of the original Traveller system, just as MTrav's are. We need to
bring the two branches into one again, and the T2K2 system is better, so
that's the way we're going. (More about the task system in topic 26--I think
it is--where I normally post.)
Loren is currently working things out for GDW to have an on-line, face- to-
face discussion of the coming year for Traveller. And I encourage you all to
mail us your rules variants, comments, criticizms, and whatnot (preferably
ground mail, so we have paper to hand around without the intermediate steps
of capturing and printing).
In conclusion, Metlay, you say that the proof is in the pudding, and that
you'll be convinced when you have the final product in your own two hands.
That's all we can ask.
Sincerly,
Les.
------------
Category 11, Topic 29
Message 68 Thu Nov 28, 1991
M.TURNAGE1 at 21:10 EST
Due to Les' recent comments, I have to say that my opinions of the revision
are radically changing. A lot of my fears have been have been soothed and I'm
actually feeling that this will be something positive and worth waiting for,
instead of an inevitable to be dreaded and lived with.
I still stand by everything I've said before. Do I still have problems and
doubts: you better believe it! We, as gamers in general, have been burned
before. And this is a BIG step...there's still a lot that can be flubbed.
The proof, as Metlay said, will be in the final product. GDW _must_ be open
to our feelings if this is going to work, but we've also got to understand
their posistions and be willing to listen to them as well.
That said, back to the wish list and reiterating some things.
1) The consensu view on here is that the original publication MUST BE
COMPLETE. We've got to have enough to cover all the classic areas...in
general detail; this means system building, character generation, equipment,
background, *starship/vehicle operations and design!!!*, trade/merchant rules,
etc. With the Basic Neo-Traveller set you should be able to handle any of the
classic travelling situations, including the areas covered by the supplements,
to some degree...admittedly abstract in many areas. This especially includes
large combats and fleet actions. This doesn't mean I have to have Neo-Striker
or High Guard III -The Wrath of Meson Cannons; it does mean I should be able
to tell the players "Well when the Reds with their fourteen cruisers fought
the Blues with their ten cruisers and light carrier, the [insert color here]'s
won..." after two or three die rolls. Leave the gory details to the specific
supplements.
I think the idea that should be aimed at here is the "Levels of Detail"
one that came up in the discussions about AI way, way back. GMs should be able
to go into as much detail as prefered. Let the basic system handle a general
level of detail sufficient enough to provide compelte play: ie, if I never
want to pick up a supplement I can still run the game. Let supplements handle
more specific areas; if the GM or players want to go to the trouble, have the
material there...but don't make it impossible to run the game if they DONT
want to go to the trouble.
A good breakdown could be: Basic rules. Detailed Vehicle/Equipment
design rules. Detailed System rules (ala World Builder's). Detailed mass
combat/military campaign rules (Mercenary/Striker). Detailed Fleet
combat/Strateic level rules (High Guard/Trillion Credit Squadron). Ultra-High
Tech technologies (TL 16 +) Detailed racial rules, and so on.
With the detailed supplements could also come the non-Imperium genre items
(particularly all the various technologies bandied about for Starship
Operator's Manual Vol 2). Alternate genre/historical period settings...a
popular one would be a "Prologue" source book that covered the period between
the end of the Rebellion and NT. As someone suggested, 2300 AD could live
again. Maybe even Space:1989? This'd also have the big plus of allowing GDW
to have more than one SF game...meaning *licenses!* (Its estimated that so
many books are being licensed by SJG at this point that in ten years, world
books'll be coming out for novels not to be written until sometime in the mid-
21st century :)
Mark
------------