Bruce... ([email removed]) writes:
> Scott "2G" Kellogg writes:
> > So, what do we need for a large ship building yard? Mainly
> > resources. Those resources are the material to physically make the
> > ship, and the technology to make it work.
> YES. BUT. What you want is highly processed/refined resources.
To have a successful starship repair or construction business, you need
access to the following resources:
1) a reliable supply of parts and materials
a) local sources: the yard can be located on an industrialized,
high-tech world which can mass produce the needed items on
demand. Inventory can be small or nonexistant to keep costs
low; custom work is easily done by letting subcontracts.
b) if local sources are not available, parts can be imported
from off-world suppliers. The inventory must be large, with
the attendant costs. Custom or non-standard parts may be
effectively unavailable at any price.
2) a pool of skilled labor (designers, engineers, techs, etc)
a) local sources: labor can be hired locally from a pool of
skilled workers; compensation must be competitive, but
no special provisions need be made.
b) if no skilled local labor is available, then
i) train promising local workers in high-tech skills.
High initial costs for training, but compensation costs
less than equivalent workers on a more advanced
world. May result in technology transfer to local
culture (which may be desirable or undesirable depending
on local circumstances).
ii) recruit workers from a more advanced world to work at
the facility. Compensation may need to be high in order
to attract workers for work distant from their home
planet. Housing or other facilities may need to be
built depending on the local conditions.
3) a steady flow of paying customers. An analysis of the shipbuilding
equilibrum equation shows that annual maintainance is the majority
of any shipyard's workload (the 4+T/L term is the relevant porton
of the equiation; 4 weeks/year is the maintainance requirement,
while T/L weeks/year is the construction requirement). Even in the
extreme case of million-ton ships, construction is 43%, and annual
maintainance is 57%. For more reasonable cases (average ship size
of 5,000 tons), the ratio is 31% to 69% (both of these assume an
average ship life of 80 years).
Last week, I wrote (mea culpa):
> The equilibrum equation is X=(U*(N+M))/(4+(T/L)) and the condition is
> that X<=(U*N)/(T/L).
> U == Shipyard Utilization Factor == 1.00
> N == New Ship Construction Capacity == 491,400 ton-weeks
> M == Maintainance Capacity == assumed to be zero
> T == Ship Construction Time == 9600 ton-weeks for a 200 ton ship
> L == Lifespan of an average ship == 100 years if well maintained
> Therefore, X is approximately 510 ships, or 102,000 aggregate tons.
There are two problems with the above. First of all, a line should be:
T == Ship Construction Time == 48 weeks for a 200 ton ship
and due to rounding/truncation errors, X (which is in aggregate tons)
should be X = 109,688 aggregate tons, or about 548 200 ton ships.
Sorry about that, folks!
Steve Higginbotham [email removed] writes:
> Wildstar [that's me!] wrote:
> >0109 Motet C898735-3 AG Y
> >Obviously an agro world feeding Madrigal, and maybe other parts of the
> >subsector as well. Good destination for traders looking for an unususl
> >cargo
>
> Why does ANYONE believe that TL3 worlds can feed a subsector? TL3 countries
> usually have trouble feeding themselves, much less anyone else. Look
> around at the food exporting countries in the real world: they are all
> comparatively high technology (TL6+).
In the real world right now, almost any country that is significant in
any way to the "outside world" is TL5+; I would argue that this is not a
valid comparison. Instead, let's look into the past, when TL3 was the
most advanced technology on the planet.
OK, well let's take a look at what TL3 means: Rifled firearms, calculus,
telegraph, clipper ships. Hot air balloons, and basic electricity are
all recent developments; the MT Referee's handbook gives circa 1800 as a
capsule description.
That sounds rather like the shape of the world from roughly the American
Revolution to the turn of the century. Many areas of the world, in
particular the colonial empires of the major powers, produced sufficient
quantities of food for export. The primary problems of the age were a
lack of refrigeration (so that only non-perishable food could be
shipped), a lack of bulk overland transportation (goods had to be
shipped by sailing ship), and a lack of mechanized labor. This last is
the most crippling, from a food production standpoint.
In the case of Motet, I would argue that there is TL4 equipment (steam
power machinery) on the world, but that it is all imported. Probably
the equipment was designed and produced on Madrigal specifically for
export to TL3-4 agricultural work. Steam power has the advantage that
it is a simpler technology, operating at lower speeds, tempratures, and
pressures than internal combustion. Although produced offworld, the
technology is simple enough that a TL3 blacksmith can perform many of
the most common repairs. The equipment is also rugged, long-lived, and
easily understood.
The reason Motet is still classified as TL3 is because the steam
technology is imported - Motet lacks the mines, smelters, foundrys, and
machine shops needed to produce these things locally. I would further
argue that Motet is poor in native mineral resouces, particularly readily
exploitable metal ores (this being the reason that the world remains at
TL3 even though higher-tech knowledge is available).
As an aside, about a month ago, I watched a 70+ year old Case steam
traction engine thresh a wagonload of wheat. It took 5 men, one steam
tractor, and one 40+ year old thresher less than half an hour to thresh
a wagonload of wheat. It took about another half hour to bale the
straw. The steam tractor is almost all iron in construction, and can in
theory be expected to last indefinitely as long as ordinary maintainance
is kept up. The thresher is mostly wooden, and will not last as long.
There is even older steam machinery still operable; at the same place I
saw an operating 1903 model; operating steam railroad locomotives well
over 100 years old also exist.
Back on Motet, I would assume that there are a number of spaceports
scattered throughout the countryside. This allows offworlders to pick
up their cargoes at the point of origin, and compensates for the lack of
bulk ground transportation on Motet. The world is probably producing as
much as it can without wholesale mechanization of the farming industry
(which would include internal combustion tractors, fertilizers,
pesticides, and general increase to about TL6). I doubt that Motet
feeds the entire subsector (except for spices, exotic foods, wines, or
other luxury items; these are probably carried to markets many parsecs
away). However, Motet probably makes the difference between starvation
and plenty for Madrigal, and perhaps other nearby worlds.
> >0110 MADRIGAL B7989DE-6 S IND Y
> >The industrial powerhouse of the subsector. I don't believe that
> >commercially important worlds need to be high-tech. Madrigal is quite
> >capable of producing industrial goods that would be useful to worlds
> >anywhere from TL-3 to TL-9 (which includes most of the worlds in the
> >subsector). For export to lower-tech worlds, it probably produces heavy
> >machinery and mining and agricultural equipment; for high tech worlds,
> >Madrigal likely exports machine tools, precision equipment, and some
> >consumer goods. It also is the major source of refined chemicals and
> >bulk metals (iron and steel ingots, barstock, plates, pipes and other
> >useful materials). Total production is likely to be more than a
> >hundred million tons annually. The class B starport is maintained
> >by and for the convenience of Madrigal's customers, and the cost of imported
> >skills and technology is part of the cost of doing business.
>
> How many TL6 machine tools do we import into the USA? How much precision
> equipment? At TL6, your idea of precision isn't even in the time zone
> required for real precision work. Total production is more than 100,000,000
> tons annually? So where do the exports come from? The USA does more than
> that, and we sure don't have 1,000,000,000 people in the USA!
Again, let's put this in perspective. In the "real world" today, none
of the major producers of machine tools and precision equipment are
still at TL6 (most, including the USA and Japan, are hovering somewhere
around TL8). So nobody imports TL6 equipment anymore; it can't be had.
The US is (still) a major producer and exporter of machine tools and
precision equipment; we do import some, mostly TL8 equipment from Japan.
On the other hand, a *LOT* of existing factories and equipment date back
to the TL6 period. Although we do not import this equipment anymore, a
great deal of the everyday industrial production that goes on in the US
is still being done with TL6 equipment.
Madrigal is the only world in the subsector which is classed as
"Industrial". I take this to mean that it is the only one capable of
creating on a mass produced basis the products of post industrial
revolution society. Although low, TL6 roughly corresponds to post-WWII
America (say 1946-1959 as a really rough range). I see Madrigal
mass-producing items, frequently to off-world (and high tech) designs
and requirements. Example: "Hey, Charlie! Why would anybody need to
draw Lanthanum wire? I dunno, Joe, but we just got an order for a
thousand spools of it!".
As far as the required precision goes, I think that Madrigal will be
able to make equipment that fills most (but not all) requirements.
Again, working to off-world plans will enable them to contribute to
products which are then finished on another world to a higher tech
level. As an example, Madrigal may produce machined steel castings for
lathe parts (the bed, ways, etc). These are then shipped to another
world, which then completes the lathe, equipping it with laser
interferometer sensors, and a sophisticated computer control system.
The result is a high-tech numerically-controlled lathe.
As far as the 100 million tons figure, it was made up; and I was
thinking exports, not total production (and I should have said so, but
didn't: mea culpa). If this doesn't sound like a good figure for a TL6
industrial world, can you suggest a figure?
X Visser [email removed] writes:
> Subject: Get on with it already.
>
> There are lots of game systems that can do Sci-Fi, but none, it seems, with a
> decent enough universe to bother doing it in. That,it would seem, is the niche
> that needs to be filled. Rules really aren't that hard, especially if you are
> willing to be a little flexible. It's the data that's the killer.
Thanks for the support; I'll see what I can do to "get on with it"
[email removed] writes:
> centers of the 57th century will develop at the nexi of transportation
> nets, both in-system and interstellar. Regardless of how sectors are
> generated, there should be a good reason for the siting of a class A
> starport, either because the cost of in-systems materials are cheap, or
> because that starport is at the junction of several insterstellar trade
> routes.
> Just my 2 credits worth. Y'all can flame me now... ;->
No flames from me! As a matter of fact, I agree with you!
I do see a problem with Traveller, though. The
starport classifications are developed first, and independently of both
the characteristics of the world and of the characteristics of the rest
of the subsector. What we are trying to do is construct
rationalizations for a system which is fundamentally random.
[email removed] [Scott 2G Kellogg] writes:
> Well, I'll tell ya, If I was running a shipping yard, I wouldn't
> want to have to subcontract to a company in another SOLAR SYSTEM.
Even when (because they have a lower labor costs, and a very favorable
exchange rate) they can underbid local subcontractors by 5000 Cr/Ton,
and have a signed contract with Arekut with a gauranteed frequency of
service? All other things being equal, and according to exchange rate
table (initially presented in the Journal, and later in Striker), a
TL-10, Starport-B world can underbid a local contractor on a TL-14,
Starport-A world by *HALF*. In the case of a Book 2 Model/4 computer,
this means that the computer is about 4 tons (shipping space 5 tons?).
The thing has a list price of 30 million credits (standard, I presume).
Going to a TL-10, Starport-B supplier saves 15,000,000 credits, enough
to ship the thing 3,000 parsecs and still break even.
> Chicago's O'Hare is class C? No bloody way! Class C means unrefined
> fuel and 'reasonable' repair facilities. No overhauls, no 100 hr
> inspections. To me, that means that the port is more like your local
> airstrip. (Say College Park airstrip for the DC & MD crowd)
> Small private planes VERY small commercial stuff. Class D is more
> like a grass strip airport, with MAYBE a hanger. Class E is a
> farmer's field.
To quote chapter and verse (Traveller Book 3: Worlds and Adventures,
copyright 1977 by Game Designers' Workshop, page 5):
A = Excellent Quality Installation. Refined Fuel Available. Annual
maintainance overhaul available. Shipyard capable of starship and
non-starship construction present. May contain Naval Base and/or
Scout base.
B = Good Quality installation. Refined fuel available. Annual
maintainance overhaul available. Shipyard capable of constructing
non-starships present. May contain Naval and/or Scout bases.
C = Routine installation. Only unrefined fuel available. Reasonable
repair facilities present. May contain a Scout base.
D = Poor quality installation. Only unrefined fuel available. No
repair or shipyard facilities present. May contain a Scout base.
E = Frontier installation. Essentially a bare spot of bedrock with
no fuel, facilities, or bases present.
X = No starport. No provision made for any starship landings.
Note that nothing explicit is said about traffic levels (even relative
traffic levels). Going back to the airport metaphor, which is imperfect
at best, does O'Hare have the capability to build an aircraft or
assemble one from components? I don't know what a 100hr inspection
entails, and I don't know of any airline has a major maintainance
facility there. If major maintainance is available, I would classify it
as Class B; otherwise it's got to be C.
In my (humble) opinion, starport classification has nothing to do with
size or amount of traffic. If a municipal airport rents out one of the
hangars to a lightplane maintainance and restoration company, and if the
airport has both AvGas and Jet-A available, then it is class B (overhaul
available, both kinds of fuel). Other airports of similar size might be
Class D, if they only sell AvGas and no repairs are available. Class E
might be an "airstrip" out in the outback of Australia - a patch of bare
ground that's been cleared of most large obstructions. Class X is a
farmer's field: you are not supposed to land there, but you might be
able to in an emergency.
More than anything else, I think we are hitting our heads on a major
limitation in Traveller: not enough detail in the definitions (and too
few categories to pigeonhole things into). Probably there sould be some
detailed starport generation scheme, which detailed the types of
services available, and the capacity of each one.
> But remember, that the concentrations of shipping will tend to be where
> the technology and industry are, which is where the raw materials are.
> Thus shipyards attract shipping, and shipping attracts shipyard building.
I think we have the classic chicken and egg problem here. For some
worlds, blessed with abundant raw materials, adequate (but not
excessive) population, and sufficient technology and industry, will be
able to independently achieve starfaring status (I would guess that most
TL-10+, Industrial, Class-A starport worlds meet this criteria).
Then there are the exceptions. Worlds at which shipping concentrated
for other reasons, including accidents of astrography or strategic
location, may eventually attract Class-A or Class-B facilities, even if
much of the technology and skill has to be imported.
> Traveller's News Service
> Weelkes/Gamba ?112888-A S 132-1104
>
> A band of terrorists have destroyed the Weelkes starport shipyards when
> [deleted in an attempt to save the endangered net.bandwidth]
> of the one true faith. :-)
A little more extreme than I had in mind, but it works!
[More about Madrigal]
> Yeah, possibly, but who would want a bunch of TL 6 Steel hulls for
> spacecraft? If they are very late TL 6 they might be able to manage
> a Gemini or Mercury type space capsule, or at BEST an X-20 Dynasoar.
> I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the Roughneck class spacecraft.
Although you may have a point, I will argue that there's no real
penalty in having a steel hull for most commercial applications.
In almost all cases, agility is going to be zero anyway, so that
the mass of the hull is irrellevant; volume of hull material does not
enter into the design sequence anyway, and the price modifier for steel
is the same as superdense or bonded superdense - the cheapest available.
With TL-6 materials, most starship hulls rather resemble that of a
battleship - more than a foot of armor steel! So what?
On the other hand, being cheap and low tech, it has relatively few
control points (about half the control point requirement of any other
type of hull material). This would tend to save on computer and crew
requirements.
A TL-6 world could probably fabricate Composite Laminates and
Lightweight Composite Laminates if the knowledge and need were
available. Some of the raw materials (in particular, carbon "whiskers"
grown in microgravity conditions) may be imported.
> Steve, Wildstar: How would you handle trade and commerce from the
> point of view of a bunch of jokers in a free trading starship?
Rule Number One: All of the inherently-profitable routes have attracted
large (relative to a group of player characters in a free trader)
outfits who run these routes regularly (and have most of the large and
legitimate cargoes spoken for).
The usual advice to referees applies, in short:
Feed the players a steady diet of table scraps; just enough to
keep them feeling that they *COULD* get a big break. They sould win
most fights, loose some, make some enemies, win some friends.
The players should feel that they control their destiny, and that they
can and do make some sort of difference.
Ignore what the rules say, and wing it. Go for what makes the plot
develop in whatever way you need it to. However, don't bludgeon the
players; they *NEED* to feel that thay have some sort of choice, even if
its between bad and worse (but try to keep things upbeat unless you know
your players prefer otherwise: compare the relative popularity and
lonvevity of Cyberpunk vs Star Trek (an estimated 50% of the US
males over 18 consider themselves Star Trek "fans")).
Robert S. Dean [email removed] writes:
> [Exports from a TL-3 Ag world]
> the exports would concentrate on high value foods of various sorts rather
> than bulk grain. Real world analogies would include bananas, coffee, and
> alcoholic beverages as examples.
However, exporters would have facilities availble in starships which
were simply not available in the historical TL-3 period. Exports may
well include fresh meat and vegetables, suitably frozen, refrigerated or
otherwise preserved while aboard the starship.
> I tend toward the "sustainable with local resources" description rather than
> the "maximum level to be found for sale" description, so it would not be too
> unreasonable to think that some farming on Motet is carried on with the assist
> ance of TL6 farm equipment from Madrigal factories, which are either repaired
> by Madrigal technicians using imported parts when they break down, or perhaps
> simply scrapped....
I tend to agree with Rob.
However, this does depend somewhat on the
"trade model" one uses. If you assume large amounts of interstellar
trade, this is a reasonable description. If, on the other hand, you assume
that the volume of trade is small and concentrated primarily in luxuries
and exotic goods, then it is unreasonable to assume that imported
technology is significant.
> I've never been very comfortable with the entire idea of an Imperial army,
> but if there is any major Imperial army presence, it is probably centered
> on Weelkes, and equipped at TL10. Definitely third or fourth line...
I've never really considered an Imperial Army before (for some reason,
the Navy, Marines, and Scouts all seem more interesting). I suppose
that the Imperium would have one, but I don't really have a good feel
for how they would work in a game setting.
> Yes, I think that this would work best, with the exception that I'd like to
> use TL13 as the Imperial base, with those two TL14 planets then being at the
> real cutting edge of technology.
Yes! I like this! Let's do it! TL-13 would place us anywhere from
about 300 to 700 ... any preferences?
metlay writes:
> The concept of a prebooked connection Jump boggles my mind. Completely.
> Anywhere other than Tukera monopolized core areas, who would dare try?
Metlay: prepare to be boggled!
In many of my campaigns, the concept of a "trip voucher" arose.
Originally arranged through the Travellers' Aid Society (and only
available to members), in later campaigns we extended the concept and
made it available as a commercial service, through a company which
provided many travel-related services (rather like a travel agency
combined with the American Express company). I have recently started
calling these vouchers "Travellers' Destination Recipts".
The TAS service was provided as a service to TAS members; improving
service and connections. Some of the larger transportation
megacorporations (like Tukera) could provide a similar service, but only
within the company. The first commercial ventures were started by a
consortium of smaller local lines, as a way to compete with the larger
line's scheduled service.
The basic concept is that a sophisticated database system is fed with
all of the schedule data for every scheduled interstellar passenger
service in the area. All different kinds of lines provide
scheduled service (for various reasons, including contractual
obligations for the Imperium, subsidy, or for mail). In particular,
mail and subsidy contracts typically require the maintainance of an
established schedule with a mandatory on-time percentage.
In such a scheme, departure dates and times are fixed, with the
corresponding arrival time variable due to the nature of jumpspace
travel. Even so, there is a maximum jump length (unless a misjump
occurrs). Connections are scheduled so there is at least 12 hours
between worst-case arrival time and the scheduled departure of the
connection. This amount of time means that travellers occasionally have
to hustle to make their connection (particularly in cases of delays at
customs, or in the inbound traffic pattern). The more usual case is for
the players to have a day or two to signt-see between connections; just
right for a short encounter or other interesting activity.
The database is searched to find the "best" path from world of origin to
the destination. In the case of vouchers issued by TAS, the trip is
routed through worlds with TAS installations if possible. The trip
price is based on the price of the individual High Passages which would
make up the journey. There is typically a 10% surcharge for the voucher
(although TAS does not charge this fee); in return, the company issuing
the voucher has a contract with the passenger lines. The contract
requires that a certain number (based on expected ridership) of berths
be reserved for voucher holders. The reserved berths must be held in
reserve until 12 hours after the arrival of any connecting ship.
In the cases of missed connections, unfilled reserved staterooms, and
other emergencies, the local agent tries to do the best he or she can.
Usually missed connections will be made good on the next available
transport. Unfilled reserved berths are paid for at a rate specified in
the appropriate contract, unless the ship's captain has managed to fill
them with middle passengers. The shipping companies are paid regularly
for the trips actually taken, again at times and rates specified on the
contracts.
Such a system provides everyone with benefits. Passengers have less
worry about connecting flights, and have the benefit of scheduled
arrival and departure times. The transport companies get more business
and can better compete aganst the large lines. And the company providing
the service makes a provit from the surcharge.
Steve H. writes:
> In MT, nothing is worth much more than KCr10 per ton, which just
> exacerbates the problem. Cynthia and I have used Merchant Prince and
> its descendants (with our own mods, some of which were posted here once)
> as a good indicator of overall trade patterns. But it is next to
> useless as a trade system, since it assumes that interstellar trade uses
> AVERAGE cargo value as an approximation to any specific deal. But
> average is not good enough, when most of the products of ANY world are
> not worth exporting. So they should be left out of the averaging
> process, and the actual value of goods shipped should be in the range of
> ten times as valuable (and costly) as MT indicates.
Or shipping for bulk goods should cost about 1/10th of what it currently
does. Something that would be nice is to have some sort of low-cost
bulk shipping method, so that things like ores and other high-bulk,
low-value commodities could be shipped profitably.
But I agree with you, the trade and commerce system is in desparate need
of fixing.
[email removed]
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Science-Fiction Adventure
in the Far Future