>Phil [responding to some of Hans' points]:
>Reminds me of some of the accounts, written by the savemasters, of
>course, describing the "utopia" of plantation life. Reminds me
>of a book about Darwin I read a long time ago. He talks about visiting a
>plantatiion in Brazil, where the master assured him that this was a virtual
>heaven on earth. He even trotted out his slaves & sure enough, not a single
>one expressed the wish to be free! Well, Darwin wasn't fooled. He knew
>a slave society when he saw one & so do I! The problem isn't producing
>more than the citizens *need*, it's producing more than the citizens *want*.
>I submit that the Zhodani have no where near as much as they want and their
>society's behavior reflects that. On the other hand their expansion could
>just be old fashioned 'crusading', I suppose. Just as bad, IMO.
==========================================================================
Dane:
Which behavior are you talking about? Which expansion are you refering
to, exactly? The Imperium is a whole heck of a lot more expansive than the
Zhodani, actually. This is also in the books...Zhodani Module, pg 9:
"...recent Zhodani history has been dominated by their emnity towards the
Imperium, with personal distaste reinforced by a feeling that the Imperium
seeks to hamper Zhodane's *slow, conservative expansion* by pre-empting the
best planets and otherwise limiting growth." Emphasis mine. Page 10: "The
Zhodani Consulate is roughly at the limits of growth; further expansion of its
borders would strain interior communications without providing great amounts
of additional benefit. Instead, attention has been directed, in the long
term, toward the galactic core."
If you mean the Frontier wars, I offer this, taken from page 66 of the
Rebellion Sourcebook (MegaTrav):
"...it is natural for the Spinward Marches to fear a Zhodani invasion.
Indeed, that fear was the purpose of the centuries' Zhodani aggression
(sic)...The multi-generation campaign to protect the Zhodani Consulate from
the largest human empire in existence has been a success. In the early years
of the Imperium there was a real possibility that Imperials would expand into
Zhodani territory. Now, the Imperium is falling apart; no longer is it a
threat to the Zhodani."
- ------------------------------------------------------------
>Phil:
>I find that I just can't believe that a monolithic society, of
>any sort, could be preferable to a diverse one.
>Hans:
>Whoa! Where does it say that Zhodani society is monolitic? How would you
>like diverse society where nobody lies, cheats, or steals? Might that
>not be worth considering?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>It's right there in the books. It's the job of the Tavrchedl, as the "Sword
>& Shield" the Zhodani ruling class, to ensure conformity. All dissimilar
>cultures *must* yield to the Zhodani "One True Vision", or else, as the
>Imperium has found out a number of times. As I said before, it's the na-
>ture of such regimes. The greatest threat to them is the existence of
>*any* other form of society.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Dane:
Yes and no. Yes, on page 14 of Zhodani it says that they monitor all of
Zhodani society and conduct periodic examinations and sweeps of everybody's
mental health, looking for signs of deviant thought patterns and unacceptable
behavior. Re-education is also visited upon the Noble class, however, as is
pointed out in the "Legal System" section on page 13. Clearly, from the
quotes up above the Frontier wars were *not* wars of conversion; they had
nothing to do with the Tavrchedl'.
As for 'all dissimilar cultures yielding,' take a look on page 10, where
it says: "...expansion encountered a variety of human and non-human cultures,
many of them long-standing and well-established. Some of t;hose cultures have
been enticed into accepting Zhodani ways, with most of them having been
absorbed into the Consulate. Others have remained client states of the
Consulate; still others have resisted the Zhodani, accepting Imperial aid or
depending on their own resources."
Hardly the Evil Juggernaut Phil is trying to make them out to be.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
>Phil:
>"Nobody lies, steals & cheats"? Give me a break! Nobody *but* the ruling
>class you mean. (Remember, *they* get the benefit of rights, unlike the
>teeming "masses".) Of course, if *everyone* had the right to pyshic pri-
>vacy then the Tavrchedl couldn't do their job. But after all, these proles
>are just inferior creatures anyway, aren't they? They *need* to be cared
>for so they don't do themselves harm. (Now, where have I *heard* that be-
>fore?) Any society that believes that it's fine , even desirable, to ex-
>clude such a portion of their population from enjoying any sort of inher-
>ent rights, cannot be a Utopia. Medieval, yes; utopia, no.
>=======================================================================
Dane:
This is a little stickier: Yes, the Zhodani have a two class system
with one portion being denied *voting* rights. The Imperium also has a Noble
class often exempted from certain restrictions. Many of the Imperial
planetary governments are even more heinous than that! Consider three other
points, however.
1) Page 12 of Zhodani: "The advanced educational tools available to
the Zhodani make it possible for nearly all members of society to see their
own potential and to see the paths they can take toward realizing it."
2) Page 13 of Zhodani: "Trust is an assumption. Locks are rare, and
more likely safety devices to protect children than anti-theft devices. Walls
protect from teh elements rather than from intruders. Laws deal more with
appropriate action than with crimes."
3) The legal system is hardly lacking in Prole Rights. It simply
doesn't give the Proles the vote. They are judged by a *telepath* as to
whether they are guilty, evidence *is* heard, and so forth. The *same*
procedure is applied to Nobles, except that a Noble of higher rank must sit in
judgement. Page 13: "For the good of all concerned, a convicted Noble is
usually transferred to another location or world rather than returned to his
or her original position after re-education."
So, Phil's declaration that *of course* they lie and cheat because
they're human is completely false *according to the books*. If he wants to
portray the Nobles in that manner he's (of course) welcome to, but the books
are explicit in saying that such crime is *unknown* in the Zhodani Consulate -
- - neither Prole nor Noble does it.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Hans:
>Actually, they're not (at least, not going by the rules). They have to
>be specially _trained_ to lie, for example.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>Doesn't *everyone* have to learn to lie. No doubt it doesn't take long to
>learn that much can be gained from lying. Just as in any human society.
>(Zhodani *were* still human, last I heard)
=========================================================================
Dane:
Yup, the Zhos are human. However, in the Zhodani society, Lying will
*not* gain you anything but re-education. Unless you're Psionic (ie Noble)
and *very strong* you're not going to be able to hide lying and cheating.
Esp. since whoever you lied to and cheated is probably going to report you.
This is sort of the whole point, I think: The Zhodani society is a
Human one without any advantage to lying, cheating or stealing. Phil doesn't
think this is possible, which is his right, but as a consequence of this
assumes we should be agreeing with him that the Zhodani are clearly an evil
empire. I think some of us do think it's possible, and that Humans are not
intrinsically nasty and conniving. I know I don't think we're inherently
liers<shrug>. However, GDW has gone out of its way to present the Zhos as
just that sort of society. Nothing contradicts this portrayal of them in the
books.
- --------------------------------------------
>Phil:
>In short, the Zhodani system just sounds too good to be true.
>Hans:
>As someone else pointed out, that's why they're _alien_!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>And, as I've pointed out, they're also human too! With all the millenia
>of common terran evolution still embedded in their "human nature".
- -----------------------------------------------
Dane: See my above point: I do not believe that Human nature requires us to
be liers.
- -------------------------------------------------------
>Phil:
>On the other hand, I suppose someone could say there's an "alien" society not
>too far from where I live. It's called the Republic of Mexico!
>As Catie said; "they're *still* slaves." (sic). A slave society is
>still a slave society & I just can't see how that could be considered
>anything but a dystopia.
- -------------------------------------------------------
Dane:
Slaves in what way? Proles don't have the vote. They have a legal and
social system which permits them to "see their own potential and to see the
paths they can take toward realizing it." Crime is completely absent and the
criminals are 100% reformed using psionic techniques.
And yes, there is an alien society not too far from where you live. It
is the Republic of Mexico. Canada isn't that far away, either. The attitudes
and cultures of foreign countries are in many cases radically different than
those here in the US. Heck, we're not even that uniform: consider an average
teen growing up in south-central LA and one growing up in Minot, North Dakota.
How similar are their world views, attitudes, and so forth going to be? To
the LA teen, the lifestyle that exists in Minot is all but unthinkable, and
vice versa. <Shrug>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
>Phil Pugliese
Dane, Perfidious Zhodani Aggitator
[email removed]
[email removed]
TNS Stringer ------------ Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8)
"I'm not a real scientist, but I play one in an RPG."