David Johnson sez:
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> their success, and like it or not, they *are* bringing order to their patch
> of space - 200 years down the road, many of the conquered planets will be
> *happy* to be RCES members
> Of course, there's always Quebec :)
Well, actually, there's Africa, South Asia, Latin America, Central Asia.
Eastern Europe, *North* America. I can't seem to bring to mind *anyplace*
where the locals are glad they were overrun by the `benevolent civilizers'.
- ----------------------------
Cynthia:
I can.. look further back in time. Most of Rome's possessions
were proud of their Romanized culture and of the protection of the
legions... AFTER a few centuries of Romanization. (Right after the
Romans conquered them, they weren't too thrilled about it... remember
Boudicca's rebellion? Vercingetorix?) The Romanized Celts of Britain
and Gaul were very unhappy to lose the protection of the legions as
the Empire collapsed. The cases you cite are all relatively modern,
and had only a century, at most, to be assimulated by the invading
culture. And note that both Latin America and Africa have been glad
to keep the *religions* of their invaders (Roman Catholicism in Latin
America, Islam in much of Africa). Come to think of it, most of the
areas of Africa and Central Asia that were overrun by the "benevolent
civilizers" spreading the word of Allah from Arabia are glad they were
overrun by the followers of Mohammed (peace be upon him) -- again,
after a few centuries of assimulation.
BTW, an interesting reversal is what happened in China
repeatedly... barbarians invaded and conquered, and were so taken by
the advanced culture and high standard of living of the Chinese, that
they, the conquerors, were assimulated by the Chinese. (Barbarians
glad they overran the 'benevolent civilizers'?) Hmmm... wonder if
this could happen when the RCES hit the Regency?
David Johnson sez:
- --------------------------------------------
> by joing together, forming a - what's that wored? ahhh, COALITION! They
would
> then be democratic for a time
Democratic principles in Western European society
go back hundreds of years and yet just two generations ago we were still
*lynching* folks to keep them from voting here in the US! The Imperium,
whose roots were in yet another `empire', has been around for 1100 years.
So I ask, where does the idea that `Jane Everybody' has just as much say as
`Peter Plutocrat' come from?
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Cynthia:
Roman Republic, c.500 B.C. Athens, c.700 B.C. (my dates on
classical Greek civilization are fuzzy) Anglo-Saxon and Scandanavian
cultures --- thanes/jarls were *elected* back before the idea of
hereditary warlords settled in. Ancient Celts -- "nobility" (anyone
with property and weapons) *elected* their kings. Democratic, or at
least republican principles in western European society go back
THOUSANDS of years; hereditary warlords/kings/emperors/despots is an
idea that seems to appear when the decision-makers in republics get
more interested in their own aggrandizement than in the
public/clan/tribal good, and when the economy is wealthy enough to
support it. Note that most primitive tribes (a la Bushmen, pygmies,
etc) have an almost purely communist economy/society -- "from each
according to his abilities, to each according to his needs".
The idea that "Jane Everybody' has just as much say as 'Peter
Plutocrat' comes from incredibly ancient times when everyone in the
tribe/clan contributed to its well-being, and thus had a say... there
were NO 'Peter Plutocrats'. Later, everyone who "contributed" (owned
property or weapons) was considered worthy of having a say (Celts,
Athenian Greeks, Saxons, Norse, etc).
Despotisms are an outgrowth of advances in civilization, where a
specialized ruling/administrative class could arise. Most despotisms
justify their authority by the excuse that "they have the
responsibility of running the nation, so they must have the authority
to run the nation," oft cloaked in verbiage about the Divine right of
kings or some such.
This excuse rests on the assumption that only the
ruler/nobility have the capability to make decisions for the good of
the nation... the average "citizen" does not and must be taken care
of for his own/the nation's own good. Democracy or lack thereof rests
solely on whether or not this assumption is held by the bulk of the
populace. If it is, a "presumed qualified" (Peter Plutocrat?)
nobility will rule; if it is not, there will be revolution and unrest
until the populace wrests the power of government from whomever was so
foolish to presume that they had more right to make decisions about
"Jane Everybody's" life than "Jane Everybody" did.
Ray_Pullar sez:
- ------------------------
And in the TNE rulebook. The Reformation Coalition is pro-democracy
because it holds the Imperial system of government responsible for the
destruction of interstellar civilisation. They don't see the rebellion
as some aberrant blip in the Third Imperium's history, some kind of
unfortunate accident that screwed it up. The RCers see it as the
logical (perhaps inevitable) culmination of the whole Imperial system.
Hence they don't want to repeat the same mistakes. Hence their attempt
- ---------------------------
Cynthia:
Their mistake assuming *ANY* form of government is immune to that
form of collapse. It was the late Roman *Republic* that was beset by
the civil wars between Pompeii and Julius Caesar, and among the first
Triumvirate, and between Augustus, Brutus and Cassius. Chang
Kai-Shek's corrupt "democracy" collapsed in the face of Mao's
revolution. A democracy can collapse into chaos just as easily as an
Empire, if allowed to become corrupt.
more Ray_Pullar sez:
- ------------------------
As for the development of interstellar commerce being incompatible
with 'chicken stealing' - have you looked at the 19th century
colonisation of Africa? Plenty of 'chicken stealing' took place with
the European colonists ripping off the native Africans every which way
they could while they built (or rather extended and dominated) the
local economy. And exports from Africa were used to fuel the economic
development in Europe and in America. Admittedly this is not a nice
model for the activities of the RC which is intent on practicising
'enlightened selfishness'.
--------------------------
Cynthia:
Another good model for the RC is the Spanish Empire when it
colonized and looted the New World. The Spanish economy went into a
collapse from which it STILL has not fully recovered! Why? Cheap
goods from overseas looting made it impossible for local tradesmen and
craftsmen to compete, hence they went out of business, hence the
Spanish economy collapsed. The same thing will happen to the RC if
they continue looting high-tech -- local industry will not be able to
compete / will have no impetus to improve, so the RC will remain TL
11-12, OR EVEN COLLAPSE back to lower TLs! And when the TL14-15 loot
runs out (which it will eventually -- all taken or now owned by
enemies too tough to defeat), the RC will collapse. You can't build
a healthy economy based on scavenging.
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|"What is the difference between the RCES and pirates?" |
|"The RCES CARE more!" |
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| Cynthia Higginbotham [email removed] |
| 1:396/1.8 Fidonet |
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