David Johnson:
>>From Tuesday night, Hans Rancke [email removed] writes:
>
>> Dominate how? And how quick is quickly?
>
>Well, something like what all this *Smash and Grab* stuff is supposed to
>be about for those Sword World wannabees in the Reformation Coalition.
>I, King David I of Sacnoth, send my TL 12 fleet down to Gram,
Encountering their TL 12 fleet en route. Now what? (Or _not_ encountering
it, which would be a lot more worrying ;-).
>shoot up
>the capital, drop a few `planetbusters', execute the King of Gram and
>his family, set up some disguntled duke as king, and send emmissaries
>to the other Sword Worlds expressing my sincerest hopes that I won't
>need to visit their world next.
And the next thing you know Sacnoth is being visited by the combined fleets
of the rest of the Sword Worlds who are anxious to ensure that you won't
visit their world next.
>The Confederation is really little more than a mutual-defense pact set up
>to protect the Sword Worlds from Imperial incursions and to permit joint
>`defensive' operations against the Darrians. Think more of NATO
>than the European Union.
Yes, that was my own impression. Though perhaps it is a little more. The
original Sword Worlders were refugees from a lost war. Perhaps this gave
them an Us-and-Them mentality that prevails to this day. You can fight
between yourselves, but only if you don't cripple the other guy so much
he can't help against 'Them'.
>>Ah, but thats the whole point. You don't have the factories because you can
>>buy your TL 12 stuff cheaper from Sacnoth than you can build them yourself.
>
>Sure, I do this if I value cheaper products over dependence upon Sacnoth
>(or whatever world currently is on an `up' cycle). If I'm as smart as the
>Japanese I don't get caught in this trap.
Which may be why Sachnoth is due for their own downturn on the cycle in the
not too distant future.
>>And you don't build that ship yourself becuase it's cheaper to buy it from
>>Sacnoth, too. This also impose a natural restriction on Sacnoth's ability to
>>dominate the Confederation: If they become too expensive the other worlds
>>_will_ build TL 12 factories - which will propably trigger a recession on
>>Sacnoth and close down a lot of industry - quite possibly enough to drop
>>Sacnoth a TL in the process. That's what I mean by economic cycles.
>
>There are other ways for Sacnoth to preserve its dominance. The technology
>of the US is largely available to Latin American nations. Unfortunately,
>many of these nations lack the stability, primarily political, required to
>support a similar level of economic and technological achievement. Fostering
>this instability has been standard American policy for nearly a century.
Think about this for a moment. Sacnoth is not the US in that analogy, they
are another one of the Latin nations.
>One of the reasons Central Americans who can't own American cars don't build
>their own factories is that the US military drops in every once and a
>while to topple the local government. When we're not doing that we're
>supplying arms to some `disgruntled duke' who keeps the fires of instability
>burning. We are able to do this because we have the will and a significant
>technological advantage.
Ah! There's another point. _Significant_ is a significant word here (;-).
How significant is an advantage of 12 over 11 and 10? The only figures I
have are some from Steve Higginbotham that are based on his extensive
experience with Trillion Credit Squadron campaigns. So they apply to
Classic Traveller. Quite possibly (almost certainly) things are different
under Megatraveller and New Era rules, but how different and in what
direction is difficult to say, so I will stick to Steve's until someone
comes up with better ones. According to him, and assuming competent ship
designs, a TL 12 fleet is twice as efficient, ton for ton, as a TL 11 and
six times as efficient as TL 10. Not an impossible imbalance to overcome
when you're 20 to one (I don't have the Sword World population figures
here. What is the population of Sacnoth compared to the rest of the
Confederation? It's no use being twice as good as the other fellow if
there's 10 of him.) - even if the other worlds don't buy TL 12 ships
elsewhere.
>>On the contrary, there is a lot of intergration. That's why their economies
>>can affect each other that way. What they don't have is much economic
>>_control_. Each world will do what seems best for itself.
>
>If the King of Gram is equipping his navy with TL 12 equipment built on
>Sacnoth then he's *not* doing what's best for Gram and his fief-holders
>*ought* to depose him.
Depends on what he buys. Some things (like computers) would be risky, other
things could be checked against sabotage. But perhaps he buys them from the
Imperium instead. After all, they are propably playing the US to the Sword
Worlds' Latin America.
>Clearly,
>the Sword Worlds are able to coordinate their efforts well enough to fend
>off not only Imperial military efforts to neutralized them but political
>and economic efforts as well.
I don't see how that follows at all. The only times the Sword Worlds
invade the Imperium is with promise of Zhodani help. You can't make
many assumptions based on how people behave when they think they have
a powerful ally.
>The Imperium has not been doing to the Sword
>Worlds what I've described for the US in Latin America and suggested for
>Sacnoth within the Confederation.
Based on the constant instability of the Sword Worlds it seems to me that
that may be precisely what the Imperium has been doing.
If they've tried, it hasn't worked or
>the Sword Worlds wouldn't keep joining the Outworld Coalitions.
On the contrary, if the Imperium has been doing that it explains why the
Sword Worlds are PO'd enough to keep on joining an alliance that has struck
out again and again.
>The Zhodani may be a factor
I've no doubt they are a major factor.
> ...But then again, if relations among the Sword Worlds
>are friendly then they ought to see some advantage in several high-tech
>worlds with class A starports. Maybe there is some sort of negotiated
>`balance of power': Sacnoth gets the high tech and Gram gets the shipyard?
And maybe the Imperium sees that advantage too and meddles to prevent it?
>>>Well, if this was the case, why wasn't Sacnoth the capital at that point?
>>
>>Because it was only one of 20+ worlds and the rest wanted it differently?
>
>Maybe, but again, if I'm the King of Sacnoth my TL advantage permits me
>to pretty much `smash and grab' at will.
As mentioned above I disagree. I'm also not at all sure that he would want
to. He may have the statesman mentality rather than the wargamer mentality.
>>>Leadership clearly fluctuates among the Sword Worlds so ought not these
>>>fluctuations be tied to any fluctuations in technology?
>>
>>Why should it? It is tied to political power. One source of political power
>>is technology, but it's not the only one.
>
>Now you see that in a feudal technocracy, technological power *is* political
>power.
As I've replied, technological power _enhances_ other kinds of power. A 2/1
advantage is nice, but only decisive if everything else is balanced.
>>Besides, the leadership dosen't
>>fluctuate all that much. The Sword Worlds had been led by Gram for centuries
>>in 1120.
>
>A good point. I can't explain it. As I understand it I don't see how any
>world but the technological leader can be the dominant world.
Well, I still believe that your understanding is mistaken. A population 1
million world with TL 12 is weaker than a population 10 million world with
TL 11. Or 10 population 1 million worlds with TL 11. Not to mention the
central point in my theory of Sword World economic-technological cycles:
The TL 11 worlds had TL 12 themselves not so long ago and still retain
TL 12 ships.
>Hope my explanation of a feudal technocracy helped. I don't see any specific
>reason why it should apply to inter-world relations except that since many
>Sword Worlds are feudal technocracies I would expect them to take a similar
>approach to inter-world affairs. I just don't see a bunch of economic barons
>voting and negotiating joint communiques.
Well, maybe you should try. It might help ;-). No, waitaminute. It's not
economic barons, it's economic kings. There's a differenceC
>>Oh, dear! You really have a gamer's mentality, don't you? (And, yes, here I
>>am being snide ;-)
>
>Yes, I admit it. I want the Sword Worlds to be as fractious and quarrelsome
>as they were in Piper's *Space Viking*. You see, since `my' Sword Worlds
>have always been that way I *really* have no use for the rehashed Space
>Viking-wannabees of the Reformation Coalition.
I really think you should try to make up an explanation that fits the known
facts rather than to make up an explanation and change the facts to fit them.
(But I know just how you feel. I have the same attitude to the conduct of
the Aslan and Vargr in the Rebellion. The only way they could have the
succes they are described as having is if the whole Deneb Domain is run
by imbeciles or traitors. There's no way they could be the threat thay are
portrayed as unless their military opponents are hopeless incompetents. So
perhaps my disagreement with you is just that I _can_ see a way for the
Sword Worlds to work the way they are described while you can't.)
>>The Sword Worlds have had their civil wars, true, but
>>they don't have them twice a decade. I think they've had four or five in
>>15 centuries.
>
>Another good point but only because I don't think the Sword Worlds have
>been portrayed sensibly since the beginning.
There's no answer to this argument (I know, I've used it myself ;-). All
I can say is: Try sitting down one day and start all over by listing known
facts about the Sword Worlds, discarding all your own interpretations for
a while, and then try to make sense of them - just as an interlectual
excercise. Perhaps you'll come up with something useful.
>>Maybe the Sacnoth
>>leaders think a destructive stalemate would destroy too much. And, as
>>I've mentioned above, if Sacnoth dosen't sell those ships then the other
>>worlds _will_ build the factories to make the parts and build their own. If
>>that's the way it works, then the only reason why the other worlds are not
>>TL 12 is precisely that Sacnoth IS selling them ships and spare parts.
>
>Maybe, but keep in mind the US policy in Latin America. Sacnoth doesn't
>*need* to dominate militarily in order to dominate. Especially if the
>economies are as integrated as you've described then the feudal technocracy
>extends *across* the subsector and there ought to arise someone at the
>top and that someone ought to be the highest tech world.
Think about the kingdoms of medieval Europe. There were some mixing of
feudal duties between kings (especially between England and France). But
eventually the individual countries prevailed over the feudal structure.
There's no reason why a king should welcome a feudal pattern just because
their own power is based on it. And, in fact, we KNOW they don't. If they
did the Sword Worlds would be an empire instead of a confederation.
Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
[email removed]
- ------------
"A subsector official pompously states that the
subsector armed forces have four Kinunir class
ships in service, each with enough troop strength
to put down any military operations that threathen
the peace of the Imperium."
---Adventure 1, The Kinunir