Automating a starship?

A thread of 5 messages, 9 January 1991 to 10 January 1991, in the order they were sent.

#2050 Automating a starship?

Here's stumper that one of my MT campaign players just handed me the
other day.

We were talking about the campaign and he said (paraphrased) ,"As soon as
I get some more cash, I'm going to have the ship's computer upgraded so
that just one person can operate the whole thing."  This stopped me cold.
This ship currently requires a minimum crew of three: pilot, navigator,
and engineer.  The Ref. rules say that's the MINIMUM.  There are no
additional rules for anything like what my player wants to do.  Now,
I can wing it and allow him to do what he wants, but I'm concerned on
two points.

First, what would be the most logical/least-rule-bending way to do what
he wants?  My initial reaction is have him buy two stationary robots
(one for engineering and one for nav.) and require a live pilot at
all times.  My reasoning is that a 'mere' computer could never be smart
enough (within MT guidelines) to do the jobs, and it would require at
least some synaptic processing, hence robots.  My robot design skills
are pretty much non-existant, but I guess this is a good excuse to
learn how, huh?

Second, assuming that I do allow him to succeed, what effect will it
have on game balance?  I mean, I assume that GDW/DGP put those crew
minimums in there for a reason.  Will allowing a single person with
Pilot-1 to fly around the Imperium in a 200 ton Free Trader screw
things up?  My initial reaction is "No", but I feel like I'm over-
looking some points.

What do you folks think?

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
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          [email removed]

#2058 Re: Automating a starship

Mark F. Cook [email removed] writes:
>
> We were talking about the campaign and he said (paraphrased) ,"As soon as
> I get some more cash, I'm going to have the ship's computer upgraded so
> that just one person can operate the whole thing."

Has this player been watching Star Trek III recently?  Remind him of what
happens if everything is automated, and the computer gets damaged.

Other possibilities:

. The pilot gets in trouble with Imperial authorities for violating safety
regulations (that minimum of 3 crew could be a legal, not physical,
requirement).

. He can't get his ship loaded, unloaded, or otherwise handled by starport
personnel.  The Navigators' and Engineers' Unions are upset with him for
making their members redundant, and the Starport Workers' Union is helping
them by boycotting his ship.

On the other hand, there is a precedent for this, and it doesn't require
the computer to be upgraded.  It requires the pilot to be upgraded.  One
person can do more than one job, provided that the person is skilled for
all the jobs.  For each additional job, the character's effective skill
is reduced by one.  So, if the pilot wants to navigate as well, he needs
Pilot-2 and Navigation-2; if he does both, he does so at Pilot-1 and
Navigation-1.  If he has Pilot-3, Navigation-3, Engineering-3, and the
ability to run quickly from the engine room to the bridge, then he can
fly the ship by himself, with all three skills effectively at level 1.

- - --
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#2064 Re: (2050) Automating a starship?

 In message 2050, [email removed] (Mark F. Cook) writes:
 >
 >Here's stumper that one of my MT campaign players just handed me the
 >other day.
 >
 >We were talking about the campaign and he said (paraphrased) ,"As soon
 >as I get some more cash, I'm going to have the ship's computer
 >upgraded so that just one person can operate the whole thing."  This
 >stopped me cold.  This ship currently requires a minimum crew of
 >three: pilot, navigator, and engineer.  The Ref. rules say that's the
 >MINIMUM.  There are no additional rules for anything like what my
 >player wants to do.  Now, I can wing it and allow him to do what he
 >wants, but I'm concerned on two points.

     Mark, tell me something.  Just how is it that you accidentally
stumble over the gimmick that I was planning to use in the upcoming
adventure that I'll be running?  No, never mind, it's not that
important...spooky, though.  ;-)

 >First, what would be the most logical/least-rule-bending way to do
 >what he wants?  My initial reaction is have him buy two stationary
 >robots (one for engineering and one for nav.) and require a live pilot
 >at all times.

     Good instincts.  Since I was planning to use this little tidbit,
I've done a lot of thinking about the subject.  Actually, I'm doing it
a little bit different--in my upcoming session, the idea is to have a
ship that requires *no* organo-sentient (I like this word :-) ) crew at
all.  This includes a ship that has no provision for life support (hey,
it's a *prototype*, okay? :-) ).  I don't have to tell you why various
factions in the traveller universe would find this little gem desirable,
do I?  No, I didn't think so.  ;-)

 >My reasoning is that a 'mere' computer could never be smart enough
 >(within MT guidelines) to do the jobs,

     Define "mere."  I'm doing it by mixing some technologies--robot
brains and standard computers.  High tech level, of course, but that's
a gimmie.  However, the whole point (at least, in my case) is that it's
*not* off-the-shelf equipment--experimental, and it doesn't work all too
well yet (and will continue so, at least for another tech level).
However, your players and their characters don't necessarily know this--
situation fodder.  Heck, there are lots of things in the real world like
this--it works, sort of, but in a not-especially-practical way; look at
OS/2.  ;-)

 >and it would require at least some synaptic processing, hence robots.

     Bingo.  Give the man a cheroot.  The idea I came up with was
installing a computer *much* larger than the ship needs (say, a Model
5 or 6 on a 200 ton Far Trader hull), and adding a snynaptic processing
module to it, thus making it a robot brain, of a sort.  All the control
lines go into it, and, where it needs independent manipulators, small
maintenance drones are linked to it in a master/slave relationship.
This all works fairly well, since we haven't wandered too far afield
from the published rules.  What I've just done is make a big starship-
shaped robot.  A little extrapolation is needed, but that's all.

     For your purposes, you can go a little simpler--a big computer,
with add-on synaptics and only a rudimentary decision-making
capability (since you expect to have at least one organo-sentient
present at all times).

     Remember one thing about this, though.  Synaptic processors have
to be *taught*.  At the very beginning, your fancy new ship's brain
will be little more than a standard computer with a lot of potential.
It will make mistakes if the crew lets it have too much initiative.
It also runs the risk of developing a personality--there's a lot of
unused potential there.  I'm not necessarily saying that it'll be
truly sentient, but it may act like it.  As I recall, there's a
planetful of sentient robots (the Sabmiqys--Challenge 28, page 31, and
the article is written by Joe Fugate) at TL17.  So our little efforts,
built at more normal (and more available) Imperial tech levels, can
be considered non-sentient, even if they exhibit wilful and irrational
behavior.  :-)  After all, that's not necessarily an attribute of
sentience; my car acts that way all the time, and *it's* not sentient.
I think.  ;-)

 >My robot design skills are pretty much non-existant, but I guess this
 >is a good excuse to learn how, huh?

     Yup.  It's not that difficult.  About like designing vehicles.

 >Second, assuming that I do allow him to succeed, what effect will it
 >have on game balance?  I mean, I assume that GDW/DGP put those crew
 >minimums in there for a reason.  Will allowing a single person with
 >Pilot-1 to fly around the Imperium in a 200 ton Free Trader screw
 >things up?  My initial reaction is "No", but I feel like I'm over-
 >looking some points.

     My considered opinion (considered for several weeks, in fact) is
that it won't have much effect on game balance.  Just limit it.  For
instance, if a very oversized computer is needed as the base platform,
this rules out doing this to really large ships, since they need
computers that big just to operate--there won't be enough spare
capacity available.  Also, it's not a mature technology yet--there're
bound to be some teething problems.  Not to mention having to deal
with training the synaptic processor.

     Actually, now that I think about it, there's no need to get that
elaborate.  Your PCs can just buy a couple of robots with the
appropriate skills in software.  The robot would count as a crewember,
if not especially skilled or disposed to intiative.  There would still
have to be a human in charge.

     Also, I just thought of something else.  Consider attitudes toward
robots.  Vilani, especially, since they're a touch technophobic.  There
has been some anti-robot agitation out Solomani Rim way, too.

 >What do you folks think?

     Should they be allowed to have an (even partially) automated ship?
Sure.  Why not?  Provided, of course, that they're prepared to deal
with (and endure) all the possible negative aspects of the situation.
They may decide that it's not worth the expense and effort.  Or, it may
save their tails in a tight spot.  "You never can tell."  ;-)


- - --
     Brent

INTERNET:  [email removed]
[address removed]
PHONE:  [phone removed] (voice)

#2055 Re: (2050) Automating a starship?

From: Mark F. Cook [email removed]

>We were talking about the campaign and he said (paraphrased) ,"As soon as
>I get some more cash, I'm going to have the ship's computer upgraded so
>that just one person can operate the whole thing."  This stopped me cold.
>This ship currently requires a minimum crew of three: pilot, navigator,
>and engineer.  The Ref. rules say that's the MINIMUM.  There are no
>additional rules for anything like what my player wants to do.  Now,
>I can wing it and allow him to do what he wants, but I'm concerned on
>two points.
>
>First, what would be the most logical/least-rule-bending way to do what
>he wants?  My initial reaction is have him buy two stationary robots
>(one for engineering and one for nav.) and require a live pilot at
>all times.  My reasoning is that a 'mere' computer could never be smart
>enough (within MT guidelines) to do the jobs, and it would require at
>least some synaptic processing, hence robots.  My robot design skills
>are pretty much non-existant, but I guess this is a good excuse to
>learn how, huh?
>

This is the way I would do it except you don't really need two stationary
robots, one stationary robot centrally located (perhaps tied into the main
computer) could run both positions assuming it possesed the correct skills.

>Second, assuming that I do allow him to succeed, what effect will it
>have on game balance?  I mean, I assume that GDW/DGP put those crew
>minimums in there for a reason.  Will allowing a single person with
>Pilot-1 to fly around the Imperium in a 200 ton Free Trader screw
>things up?  My initial reaction is "No", but I feel like I'm over-
>looking some points.
>

It shouldn't have any effect on game balance.  Traveller already allows
robots to be used in crew positions.  In my current campaign, the party
has one mech droid which they use as assistant engineer (the ship requires
two engineers and only one person on board has any skill).  In fact this
may be an economical way to operate a ship.  You need to consider the cost
of building and maintaining the robot plus the cost of any modification to
the ship to allow it to run automatically with the cost of hiring a crew
member to do the same job.  An engineer with skill level 1 and BRN of 1
get a salary of 500Cr/month (I think) plus lifesupport of Cr4000/month for
a total of Cr4500/month or Cr54,000 per year.  If the robot cost say
Cr200,000, it would pay for itself in only 4 years or 1/10 the life of the
ship's loan!  On the other hand a PC in that position (at least in my
games) is cheaper because he works for no salary and your going to pay for
his life support anyway!

I do think that the Imperium would require at least one living being on board
at all times however (ie no completely automated robot ships) because
their artificial intelligence technology is still pretty young and not
to be fully trusted.  Moreover, if *you* wanted, you could impose a -DM to
robots in the minimum crew positions during high stress situations such as
combat on the grounds that they are not truely intelligent and would not be
able to act on a hunch or knowingly exceed reccomended safty limits for the
device (ie engines) in question or such like.

This does bring up a good question that maybe should be addressed namely
"What is the role of Artificial (or better Simulated) Intelligence in
Traveller?"  How does one handle adding synaptic units to the main computers
of a ship?  It should be possible.  The more I think about this the more
questions and situations pop into my mind.  I need to think about this some
more and post a list of thoughts on the topic after I've had some time to
organize them.

Later

TLH

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Lexington, MA              |  (Personal Mail Address is in Beta Test!!!)

#2057 One Man Band...

Mark F. Cook [email removed] writes:

> Subject: (2050) Automating a starship?

> Here's stumper that one of my MT campaign players just handed me the
> other day.

> We were talking about the campaign and he said (paraphrased) ,"As soon as
> I get some more cash, I'm going to have the ship's computer upgraded so
> that just one person can operate the whole thing."  This stopped me cold.
> This ship currently requires a minimum crew of three: pilot, navigator,
> and engineer.  The Ref. rules say that's the MINIMUM.  There are no
> additional rules for anything like what my player wants to do.  Now,
> I can wing it and allow him to do what he wants, but I'm concerned on
> two points.

> First, what would be the most logical/least-rule-bending way to do what
> he wants?  My initial reaction is have him buy two stationary robots
> (one for engineering and one for nav.) and require a live pilot at
> all times.  My reasoning is that a 'mere' computer could never be smart
> enough (within MT guidelines) to do the jobs, and it would require at
> least some synaptic processing, hence robots.  My robot design skills
> are pretty much non-existant, but I guess this is a good excuse to
> learn how, huh?

Try this on for size.  Put in the new computer (and don't forget that you
need three of them to be safe--Dow Rieder was the one who suggested that we
should allow you to have different models of computer on one ship, fighting
as the most proficient, but control as the least proficient) and calculate
the crew values.  I don't think the MT rules require you to have a navigator,
do they?  A navigator is part of the Bridge crew, and that appears to have
a minimum of one, because you round up fractions when calculating.
Engineering also rounds up fractions.  So what I would do is calculate the
required crew retaining fractional values with the new computer.  If the total
of bridge and engineering is less than one, and if the character has pilot,
navigation, and engineering skill, I'd be inclined to let in run the ship
single-handedly.  What do you mean by "at all times"?  Are you presently
requiring three shifts worth of pilots?  If modern aircraft can fly on auto-
pilot for extended periods of time, I'd have no problem with allowing a TL9+
starship to operate on autopilot most of the time, with the human there to
override/make suggestions in an emergency.  The controls are all computer
driven anyway.  However, the robot idea isn't a bad one even if you allow a
single character to run the ship.  There will (Murphy's Law) inevitably be
simultaneous crises in engineering and navigation some day....Robots are
pretty cheap compared to the computer upgrade.


> Second, assuming that I do allow him to succeed, what effect will it
> have on game balance?  I mean, I assume that GDW/DGP put those crew
> minimums in there for a reason.  Will allowing a single person with
> Pilot-1 to fly around the Imperium in a 200 ton Free Trader screw
> things up?  My initial reaction is "No", but I feel like I'm over-
> looking some points.

I can't see that it would be a problem.  There will remain disadvantages.
There is no chance of doing any damage control during a battle, and if you
get tossed in jail on a high-law planet, no crewmembers around to bail you
out..."Bare is brotherless back".

> What do you folks think?

>         Mark F. Cook

That's what I think.

Rob Dean