Mt Ranting

A thread of 3 messages, 4 August 1991 to 5 August 1991, in the order they were sent.

#2717 Mt Ranting

In (at least my version of the MT players's book) the cascade skill list,
rifleman includes auto rifle, but Combat Rifleman doesn't. It is in fact
very difficult to ever get Combat Rifleman, mysteriously mirroring the
situation in the original rules (where PCs didn't get assault rifle, guass
rifle, or ACR -- even in the Army/Marines). This is, in my opinion, asinine.
Looking through the various books, I find all kinds of things that were
in the original rules, don't make sense anymore, but are still there. The
armor rules for animals (what?), mass-independent drives (okay, so I'll
suffer), and my favorite, ship combat. Why couldn't ship combat be simply
an extension of basic combat? Why is that so horrible? The ship combat is
still an extension of the basic rules where bigger weapons increase to-hit
chance, but 10 lasers in a battery do the same damage as 1. When I got the
PHB (when it first came out), I thought `Thank God -- Real ship combat rules!'
when I read the PHB, but noooooo! On a poor, industrial world, on a good
task roll (Man, do I hate the `strangely named four-point modifier' system),
you can get cargo for free if TL is 10- and the starport is 8. Why get a
disintegrator? Combat ranges! Ack!

OK, OK, sorry if I offended, but I always liked Traveller (2-D Universe and
all), and I was enthusiastic when MT was being first advertised, but I think
when I really get down to it, my opinion of it is roughly that of most people's
opinion of Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium. I have always considered
writing my own Traveller rules (with varying levels of success), but I think
that if I was going to play, I'd rather use the Basic/Striker rules. If only
someone would simply extrapolate those for starships, I think it'd be a far
superior system. Even Twilight2000-II is better (though the initiative rules
sucked big time). I guess I just wanted to vent my frustration somewhere.
Or more importantly, an I alone in this? I doubt I am, but I dunno...

	-H

#2722 Re: (2717) Mt Ranting

In Message (2717) Hans Visser ([email removed]) writes:

>In (at least my version of the MT players's book) the cascade skill list,
>rifleman includes auto rifle, but Combat Rifleman doesn't. It is in fact
>very difficult to ever get Combat Rifleman, mysteriously mirroring the
>situation in the original rules (where PCs didn't get assault rifle, guass
>rifle, or ACR -- even in the Army/Marines). This is, in my opinion, asinine.

Hans, you are intitled to your opinions (ain't America Great?)  And in the
context of your entire message, I am in agreement to an extent.  It is a
problem with all game systems that I have seen.  Things always contadict each
other.  I however would like to argue this one point (which I don't agree).

The Gun Combat skill cascades into Hand Gun, SMG, Rifle, Auto Rifle (I think).
These are weapon firing skills that anyone can pick up (even today).  Combat
Rifleman on the other hand is strictly a military taught skill.  It includes
how to shoot a weapon, but also a lot more -- such as Sniper, Marksmanship,
how and when to Rock & roll.  Picking out enemy targets amongst friendlies,
etc.  Combat Rifleman should not be included in the Marksmenship only Gun
Combat cascade.

As far as availalbilty goes, It is the default skill for Army and Marines in
the Basic CharGen and comes up frequently in the Mercenary Advanced CharGen.
Other than that it is another example of inconsistancy :-)

Also Assault Rifle, ACR, and Gauss Rifle are all "Rifle" skills.

Just MY opinion!   ;-)

Rob aka Anton Devious

#2721 Re: Mt Ranting

I'm sure I won't be alone in responding to this message :-)

>In (at least my version of the MT players's book) the cascade skill list,
>rifleman includes auto rifle, but Combat Rifleman doesn't. It is in fact
>very difficult to ever get Combat Rifleman, mysteriously mirroring the
>situation in the original rules (where PCs didn't get assault rifle, guass
>rifle, or ACR -- even in the Army/Marines). This is, in my opinion, asinine.

A while ago, I wrote a program to read the skill tables (in the format given
in the player's handbook) and produce some code that allowed skill lookups
including all of the "serves as" and "includes" stuff (while keeping the
skills separate of course).  I doing this I had to enter the skill table
and while doing so I made a few corrections --- the biggest of which was
to make combat rifleman include the rifleman skill.  There were some other
typing errors present and some skills that were referenced but not defined,
the usual stuff that escaped proof-reading.  I've included my table at the
end of this message, I hope it is of some use.  [ For the purist, the original
list was printed using Helvetica (italic?) at some unremember point size. ]
The programs are available if anybody really wants them, but the main parser
is written in Simula (which I doubt most people have).  The skill lookup
program is in C and should be portable.


>OK, OK, sorry if I offended, but I always liked Traveller (2-D Universe and
>all), and I was enthusiastic when MT was being first advertised, but I think
>when I really get down to it, my opinion of it is roughly that of most people's
>opinion of Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium. I have always considered
>writing my own Traveller rules (with varying levels of success), but I think
>that if I was going to play, I'd rather use the Basic/Striker rules. If only
>someone would simply extrapolate those for starships, I think it'd be a far
>superior system. Even Twilight2000-II is better (though the initiative rules
>sucked big time). I guess I just wanted to vent my frustration somewhere.
>Or more importantly, an I alone in this? I doubt I am, but I dunno...

You are not the only person dissatisfied with the current rules back last
December (November?  October?) several different groups were formed in
an attempt to reform the traveller rules without damaging the 'universe'
too much.  It sort of died a silent death, I know that some work is being
done (very intermitantly).  Maybe it is time for a re-creation of the TDR
working groups.  Given the way things seem to work they won't stay around
very long, but some more progress might be made.



						Pauli



Big list of skills follows.
- - --------------------------8<-----------------------------
Academic (Cascade)
 Admin
 History
 Linguistics
 Persuasion
 Science
 +1 Education
Admin
Advanced Combat Rifle (Weapon)
Aircraft (Cascade)
 Helicopter
 Jet-propelled Aircraft
 Lighter-than-air Craft
 Propeller-driven Aircraft
Animal Handling (Cascade)
 Guard/Hunting Beasts
 Equestrian
 Herding
Archaic Weapons (Cascade)
 Blowgun
 Bola
 Boomerang
 Bow
 Crossbow
 Early Firearms
 Sling
Artisan
Assault Rifle (Weapon)
ATV (Includes)
 Wheeled Vehicle
 Tracked Vehicle
Autocannon (Weapon)
Auto Rifle (Weapon)
Axe (Includes)
 Battle Axe
 Hand Axe
Battle Axe (Weapon)
Battle Dress (Includes)
 Vacc Suit
Bayonet (Weapon)
Biology (Serves as)
 Genetics-1
Blade (Weapon)
Blade Combat (Cascade)
 Axe
 Cudgel
 Foil
 Large Blade
 Polearm
 Small Blade
Blowgun (Weapon)
Body Pistol (Weapon)
Bola (Weapon)
Boomerang (Weapon)
Bow (Weapon)
Brawling
Bribery
Broadsword (Weapon)
Broker
Carbine (Weapon)
Carousing (Serves as)
 Steward-1
Chemistry
Combat Engineering
Combat Rifleman (Includes)
 Advanced Combat Rifle
 Assault Rifle
 Auto Rifle
 Carbine
 Gauss Rifle
 rifle
 Rifleman
 Shotgun
Communications
Computer (Serves as)
 Robot Ops-1
Crossbow (Weapon)
Cudgel (Weapon)
Cutlass (Weapon)
Dagger (Weapon)
Demolitions
Disguise
Early Firearms (Weapon)
Economic (Includes)
 Admin
 Broker
 Legal
 Trader
Electronics
Energy Weapons (Includes)
 Fusion Gun
 Plasma Gun
Engineering
Environ (Cascade)
 Animal Handling
 Archaic Weapons
 Hunting
 Recon
 Stealth
 Survival
Equestrian
Exploratory (Cascade)
 Pilot
 Sensor Ops
 Survey
 Survival
 Vacc Suit
 Vehicle
FA Gunnery (Cascade)
 High-energy Weapons
 Mass Drivers
 Meson Guns
 Mortars and Howitzers
Fleet Tactics
Foil (Weapon)
Forensic
Forgery
Forward Observer
Fusion Gun (Weapon)
Gambling
Gauss Rifle (Weapon)
Genetics
Grav Belt
Grav Vehicle (Serves as)
 Grav Belt-1
Gravitics
Grenade Launcher (Weapon)
Guard/Hunting Beasts
Gun Combat (Cascade)
 Energy Weapons
 Handgun
 Laser Weapons
 Neural Weapons
 Rifleman
 Submachinegun
Gunnery (Cascade)
 Screens
 Spinal Weapons
 Turret Weapons
Halberd (Weapon)
Hand Axe (Weapon)
Hand Combat (Cascade)
 Blade Combat
 Brawling
 +1 Endurance
 +1 Strength
Handgun (Includes)
 Body Pistol
 Pistol
 Revolver
 Snub Pistol
Heavy Weapons (Includes)
 Autocannon
 Grenade Launcher
 Light Assault Gun
 Machine Gun
 VRF Gauss Gun
Helicopter (Serves as)
 Lighter-than-air Craft-1
 Jet-propelled Aircraft-1
 Propeller-driven Aircraft-1
Herding
High-energy Weapons (Serves as)
 Mass Drivers-1
 Meson Guns-1
 Mortars and Howitzers-1
High-G Environ (Serves as)
 Laser Weapons0
 Laser Pistol0
 Laser Rifle0
 Energy Weapons0
 Fusion Gun0
 Plasma Gun0
History
Hovercraft (Serves as)
 Large Watercraft-1
 Small Watercraft-1
Hunting
Inborn (Cascade)
 Artisan
 Carousing
 Instruction
 Jack-of-alI-Trades
 Leader
Instruction
Interpersonal (Cascade)
 Admin
 Interview
 Liaison
 Linguistics
 Steward
Interrogation
Interview (Serves as)
 Interrogation-1
Intrusion
Jack-of-aII-trades
Jet-propelled Aircraft (Serves as)
 Helicopter-1
 Lighter-than-air Craft-1
 Propeller-driven Aircraft-1
Large Blade (Includes)
 Broadsword
 Cutlass
 Sword
Large Watercraft (Serves as)
 Hovercraft-1
 Small Watercraft-1
Laser Pistol (Weapon)
Laser Rifle (Weapon)
Laser Weapons (Includes)
 Laser Pistol
 Laser Rifle
Leader
Legal (Serves as)
 Admin-1
Liaison (Serves as)
 Admin-1
 Streetwise-1
Light Assault Gun (Weapon)
Lighter-than-air Craft (Serves as)
 Helicopter-1
 Jet-propelled Aircraft-1
 Propeller-driven Aircraft-1
Linguistics
Machine Gun (Weapon)
Mass Drivers (Serves as)
 High-energy Weapons-1
 Meson Guns-1
 Mortars and Howitzers-1
Mechanical
Medical
Mental (Cascade)
 +1 Intelligence
 +1 Education
Meson Guns (Serves as)
 High-energy Weapons-1
 Mass Drivers-1
 Mortars and Howitzers-1
Mortars and Howitzers (Serves as)
 High-energy Weapons-1
 Mass Drivers-1
 Meson Guns-1
Naval Architect
Navigation (Serves as)
 Sensor Ops-1
Neural Pistol (Weapon)
Neural Rifle (Weapon)
Neural Weapons (Includes)
 Neural Pistol
 Neural Rifle
Persuasion
Physical (Cascade)
 +1 Dexterity
 +1 Endurance
 +1 Strength
Physics
Pike (Weapon)
Pilot (Serves as)
 Ship's Boat-1
Pistol (Weapon)
Plasma Gun (Weapon)
Polearm (Includes)
 Bayonet
 Halberd
 Pike
 Spear
Propeller-driven Aircraft (Serves as)
 Helicopter-1
 Jet-propelled Aircraft-1
 Lighter-than-air Craft-1
Prospecting
Recon (Serves as)
 Sensor Ops1
Recruiting
Revolver (Weapon)
rifle (Weapon)
Rifleman (Includes)
 Auto Rifle
 Carbine
 Shotgun
 rifle
Robot Ops
Robotics (Serves as)
 Robot Ops
 Computer-1
Science (Cascade)
 Biology
 Chemistry
 Genetics
 Forensic
 Medical
 Physics
 Robotics
Sensor Ops
Screens
Ship Tactics
Ship's Boat
Shotgun (Weapon)
Sling (Weapon)
Small Blade (Includes)
 Blade
 Dagger
Small Watercraft (Serves as)
 Hovercraft-1
 Large Watercraft-1
Snub Pistol (Weapon)
Space (Cascade)
 Engineering
 Navigation
 Pilot
 Sensor Ops
 Ship's Boat
 Vacc Suit
Space Combat (Cascade)
 Gunnery
 Sensor Ops
 Ship Tactics
 Tactics
Space Tech (Cascade)
 Communications (Commo)
 Computer
 Engineering
 Gravitics
 Vacc Suit
Spear (Weapon)
Special Combat (Cascade)
 Battle Dress
 Combat Engineering
 Combat Rifleman
 Demolition
 FA Gunnery
 Forward Observer
 Grav Belt
 Heavy Weapons
 High-energy Weapons
 High-G Environ
 Stealth
 Zero-G Environ
Spinal Weapons
Stealth
Steward
Streetwise
Submachinegun (Weapon)
Survey (Serves as)
 Sensor Ops-1
Survival
Sword (Weapon)
Tactics (Serves as)
 Ship Tactics-1
Technical (Cascade)
 Communications (Commo)
 Computer
 Electronics
 Gravitics
 Robot Ops
 Sensor Ops
Trader
Tracked Vehicle (Serves as)
 Wheeled Vehicle-1
Turret Weapons
Vacc Suit
Vehicle (Cascade)
 Grav Vehicle
 Helicopter
 Hovercraft
 Jet-propelled Aircraft
 Large Water Craft
 Lighter-than-air Craft
 Propeller-driven Aircraft
 Ship's Boat
 Small Water Craft
 Tracked Vehicle
 Wheeled Vehicle
Vice (Cascade)
 Bribery
 Disguise
 Forgery
 Gambling
 Intrusion
 Streetwise
VRF Gauss Gun (Weapon)
Wheeled Vehicle (Serves as)
 Tracked Vehicle-1
Zero-G Environ
- - --------------------------8<-----------------------------