Beretta 92F, Traveller application of same :-)

A thread of 4 messages, 4 September 1991 to 24 September 1991, in the order they were sent.

#2842 Beretta 92F, Traveller application of same :-)

In TML nightly Volume 25 Issue 5 [email removed] writes:

>I would be interested to hear what you have heard about the Beretta 92F. I
>would guess that what you have heard is not favorable? But perhaps this is
>beyond the scope of a Traveller discussion...

I think I can fit this into a TML message :-).

Firstly, the 92F is parallel to Imperial a 10mm SNUB (well, more or less).

The primary problem with Traveller equipment (ALL equipment, except
vehicles and ships) is that there is only ONE version of everything.

The US army had a competition for its primary handgun. The 92F won over
the Sig Sauer by virtue of a cheaper maintenance and spare parts deal.
It was then found out that the slide cracks and flies off the pistol
after about 4000 rounds have been fired. The US army instructed the
users to have the slides replaced after 3000 rounds have been fired. The
a slide broke after 3200 rounds have been fired. The US army cut the
replacement ceiling to 2000 rounds. Finally, the ceiling stood on 1000
rounds to replacement. The aforementioned saving went out of the gub
barrel :-).

In addition, a "feature" of the 92F adds to the "maintenance"
misadventure - both sights are part of the slide. Break one - slide must
be replaced. Cheap, eh?

Now - in Traveller we only have "10mm Auto." What about a "Intellarms
S-56 10mm Auto with gyrostabilizer?" Or a "BendArCo 23dm double magazine
10mm?" Or "Causative XMH-242 8mm, gyrostab, integral bipod, laser
rangefinder and designator?"

All Traveller equipment is "Pop from box. Unlimited warranty. Breaks on
GM intervention ONLY." What about lemons?! Eh!?

Marc

#2869 Guns 'R' Us

Marc Alexandrovich Volovic [email removed] writes:
>
> Firstly, the 92F is parallel to Imperial a 10mm SNUB (well, more or less).

If so, the Snub pistol has changed drastically since I (or my character,
at least) used it in Olde Traveller.  It got the name "snub" by having
a very short barrel, was very low velocity, and fired several different
types of ammo, mostly illegal on most planets by being either explosive
or gas.  It was also low recoil, which made it great for shipboard
security (where you didn't have to worry about minor details like local
laws).  The Beretta 92F is an example of what Striker calls a "9mm
auto pistol".  :-)

> The primary problem with Traveller equipment (ALL equipment, except
> vehicles and ships) is that there is only ONE version of everything.

Now for the important part of this message.  I also didn't like this, and
came up with a quick and simple solution.  The following table gives
modifications made to the standard guns listed in the books:

Code	Ammo/clip	Accuracy	Price
- ---------------------------------------------
1	    -		   -		-15%
2	    -		   0		-5%
3	    -		   +		+5%
4	    0		   -		-10%
5	    0		   0		0
6	    0		   +		+10%
7	    +		   -		-5%
8	    +		   0		+5%
9	    +		   +		+15%

Amount by which to alter ammo capacity:
Revolver		+/- 1 round in the chamber

Shotgun			- means single or double-barrelled
			+ means 10 round magazine

Rifle			+/- 5 rounds

Auto pistol		-50%, +20% of the standard capacity

Auto/assault rifle	+/- 30% of the standard capacity

LAG			+/- 1 round

Energy weapons		+/- 20% (weapons with "infinite" capacity
			only use codes 4-6, variation being meaningless)

Crew served weapons	+/- 20%


I implemented alterations in accuracy by altering the range bands by
+/- 10%.

So, a standard 9mm auto pistol as listed in Striker Book 3 has a
magazine capacity of 15, effective range of 10m, long range of 40m,
and extreme range of 90m.  (Which is ludicrous - my air pistol can do
better than that - but it will do for this example.)  A code 7 pistol
has a + on ammo, so 15 + 20% = 18; it also has a - on accuracy, which
for those figures really does nothing to the effective and long ranges,
but brings the extreme range down to 80m.  (Striker worked on a 1/1000
scale, and the ranges are all listed in the book as integer values of
cm.  Unless you want to measure things to millimetre precision, which
the authors apparently did not want to do, this simply changes the
extreme range on the game table from 9cm to 8cm.)  The standard 9mm
auto pistol costs Cr200; the code 7 version costs Cr190.

In addition, I had other options which could be added at the GM's leisure.
These are summed up in the following table:

Code letter	Meaning					Price alteration
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Jn		DM +n to jam				-n*5%
    S		Stock available.  On pistols, this	+10%
		doubles the range; on longarms, it
		is a folding stock.
    +		Weapon exceptionally suited to the	0 (or GM's choice)
		PC.  +1 DEX when firing.
    -		Weapon exceptionally uncomfortable
		for the PC.  -1 DEX.
    B		Barrel extension available.  Usually	+10%
		only for pistols.  +20% range.
    F		Flash eliminator available.		+10%
    NF		No flash eliminator - applies only	-Cr50
		to military weapons where one would
		be expected as standard.
    Si		Silencer can be fitted.			Cr10

The prices above only mean that something has been done to the weapon
to make fitting an accessory possible, e.g. threading the barrel tip for
a barrel extension or silencer.  The accessories themselves cost extra:
most are listed in the MT Imperial Encyclopedia.  The pistol barrel
extension costs 10% of the price of the pistol itself.  Alternatively,
it may be a whole replacement barrel, costing 20% of the price of the
pistol.

The Jn option (GM's option, not PC's!) referred back to the fact that in
my games, a natural 2 meant the gun had jammed - except that if the gun
had a J1 code, a natural 2 or 3 would do it.  No-one ever used a J2 gun!
Something similar can be worked out for the task system, using the J code
number as a modifier on the mishap table.

I got the idea of the barrel extension from Gordon Dickson's "Tactics of
Mistake".  It would probably be most practical on a snub pistol, because
of that weapon's lower propellant pressure.

> Now - in Traveller we only have "10mm Auto." What about a "Intellarms
> S-56 10mm Auto with gyrostabilizer?" Or a "BendArCo 23dm double magazine
> 10mm?" Or "Causative XMH-242 8mm, gyrostab, integral bipod, laser
> rangefinder and designator?"

A bipod on a pistol?  Novel idea, but I don't know if it would sell.  :-)

- --
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  [email removed]
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   [email removed]

#2887 Guns are they!

Adrian Hurt [email removed] writes:
>Marc Alexandrovich Volovic [email removed] writes:
>>
>> Firstly, the 92F is parallel to Imperial a 10mm SNUB (well, more or less).
>
>If so, the Snub pistol has changed drastically since I (or my character,
>at least) used it in Olde Traveller.  It got the name "snub" by having
>a very short barrel, was very low velocity, and fired several different
>types of ammo, mostly illegal on most planets by being either explosive
>or gas.  It was also low recoil, which made it great for shipboard
>security (where you didn't have to worry about minor details like local
>laws).  The Beretta 92F is an example of what Striker calls a "9mm
>auto pistol".  :-)

  I meant the 10mm SNUB is Berettas equivalent as far as ubiquitousness
goes.

>> Now - in Traveller we only have "10mm Auto." What about a "Intellarms
>> S-56 10mm Auto with gyrostabilizer?" Or a "BendArCo 23dm double magazine
>> 10mm?" Or "Causative XMH-242 8mm, gyrostab, integral bipod, laser
>> rangefinder and designator?"
>
>A bipod on a pistol?  Novel idea, but I don't know if it would sell.  :-)

  The XMH-242 is an assault weapon a-la Minimi.


  I prefer a feature list to Adrian's code system. Of course, some pieces
of equipment need additional (GM only) information (i.e. jamming mods) but
these may be hooked in somehow. Thus, the 2300AD has a very good hardware
stuff, including strangeness. The system DOES increase GM and player load.

Marc

#2897 Re: Guns are they!

Marc Alexandrovich Volovic [email removed] writes:
> >> Now - in Traveller we only have "10mm Auto." What about a "Intellarms
> >> S-56 10mm Auto with gyrostabilizer?" Or a "BendArCo 23dm double magazine
> >> 10mm?" Or "Causative XMH-242 8mm, gyrostab, integral bipod, laser
> >> rangefinder and designator?"
> >
> >A bipod on a pistol?  Novel idea, but I don't know if it would sell.  :-)
>
>   The XMH-242 is an assault weapon a-la Minimi.

I suspected something of the sort, hence the smiley.  First we were discussing
pistols; then, without warning, you included a larger weapon which would be
recognised as such only by people who know the code numbers of every weapon
in existence, including prototypes (I assume the "X" there indicates that this
gun is an experimental or prototype version).

>   I prefer a feature list to Adrian's code system.

To convert my code system to a feature list, simply delete the code number
column.  The reason for the code numbers was for the benefit of GM's whose
PCs' first action upon visiting a planet is to find the weapons shops.
Rather than say "Yes, this shop sells 9mm auto pistols", I'd say "Yes, we
sell auto pistols.  Wait a moment, I'll show you a selection."  I'd then
roll 1D6 for number of types available, then determine the code number
of each type at random.  If I felt up to it at the time, I'd add some of
the additional features as well.  It was a quick'n'dirty way of getting
some variety into the arms market.

>						     Of course, some pieces
> of equipment need additional (GM only) information (i.e. jamming mods) but
> these may be hooked in somehow.

Well, jamming mods might be known to the PC's.  Not the exact modifier, of
course, but someone might know that this particular gun has a habit of
blowing its slide off every so often, or that gun is used by the local
security forces because of its legendary ability to be dropped in a muddy
pool, thrown at a brick wall, placed in a fridge, and still be able to
fire accurately.

- --
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  [email removed]
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   [email removed]