Roughneck Class, continued

A thread of 2 messages, in the order they were sent.

#4329 Roughneck Class, continued

(continuation of RN class discussion)

Problem of no oxy?  Hmmm... maybe there isn't much O2 in the LGG
itself, but to be honest, we could find some here, too.  There
are okay proportions of methane, ethane, ammonia in the atmo-
sphere.  However, why burden ourselves getting oxy here?  Let's
visit a moon; Mimas will do.  Standing ice known to exist.  Don't
want to go to a gravity well?  Fine; rings A,B, C are thought to
mostly be comprised of water.  Average size of particulate matter
in rings; several m3 in volume.  Water aplenty, meaning oxy
aplenty.  And given reflective properties, JPL remains convinced
that this is WATER ice, not ammonia or other frozen gases.
^MNo ring?  Well, there's a matter of some interest; there's reason
to suspect that many LGGs will have them.  Jupiter does--not
nearly so spectacular and visible as Saturns, but for purposes of
tanking up on good old O2, they are practically speaking of in-
finite size.

And of course, the RN doesn't go to the well itself; it's the
duty of the faithful tenders to play Gunga Din.  Okay, so we have
the magical element for combustion and respiration.   How do we get
it to our internal combustion engines?  Diffused through the
ventilation system in pre-measured amounts.  Method?  Store the
oxygen in liquid form (either in the cryo tanks, or in the main
tanks prior to harvesting) and allow a small rate of sublimation;
more than enough for a mission which on the average will be less
than a day in duration--start to finish.
Now, dare we go down into the depths of the gas giant?  And
with a non-rigid envelope?

Well, according to the folks at JPL (who I've consulted numerous
times) there are two tricks to this.  One, you WANT a non-rigid
structure: IF you run into a bad gust (and you will at some
time), anything short of a hardened hull is going to break--
unless it can give and be the willow in the wind (as opposed to
the splintering oak).

Two; the envelope has got to have a constant capability for con-
trollable, dynamic shifts in content.  That is, you've got to be
able to reduce or increase its gas payload at will and quickly.
In a Jovian atmosphere, this is less of a problem, since there's
no shortage of helium.  However, if you CAN't do this, the rigid
frame will buckle under the increased atmospheric pressure and
collapse.  A flexible, multi-celled structure allows for the
dynamic maintenance of optimum pressure and lift.

However, now we get into the problem of meteriological trauma--
and there's no shortage of it in an LGG.  However, where there
are winds, there are lees.  Not for long, and still turbulent by
terrestrial standards, but lees that are survivable.

This is where the skill of wildcatting comes in; knowing how to
spot a developing lee that also shows sign of being in the vicin-
ity of some propane rain.  Then you have to find a gentle (com-
paratively) approach route, make your passes, and still leave be-
fore the hurricane comes back to take your face off.  Dangerous?
Yes.  Undoable?  Not at all.  In many ways, the flirting-with-
danger-aspect of the job is why I named it wildcatting; rough-
necks on the rigs in Texas are my mental model (I've known several
and seen them at work).

How bad is LGG turbulence?  Let's consider our worst-case example
(known): Jupiter.  Highest recorded wind velocities are 163 m s-
1.  However, lesser atmospheric density lessens the impact of
those winds.  As you go lower, atmospheric density increases--but
JPL studies show that wind velocity lessens as pressure increases
(or rather, as you get closer to planet `core' and the atmosphere
becomes more dense).  But most importantly, there are whole zones
(equator-following bands) on Jupiter where the average speed is
at 26 m s-1.  Calms or lees in such regions can fall into the
single digits.

Not a calm environment, but also not the monolithic tornado of
vaporous death that many post-pulp SF populists have represented.
It--like our own environment--has extremes; wildcatters simply
must stay in those areas of extreme placidity.
What if the inflatable envelope takes damage?  First, it would be
compartmentalized for control (and damage limitation).  But if
situations  went beyond that, then that's when the cryorockets
kick in and the mission is aborted; everybody gets the express
elevator ride up out of the clouds.  There, in the diaphonous
outer reaches of the atmosphere, tender/tugs hover, ready to mate
with the RN and tow it off-station for repair/refit--and a good
scolding for a captain that was either too unskilled (or unlucky)
to make a safe run.

Are there problems with all this?  SURE THERE ARE--and my per-
sonal opinion is that the BIGGEST problem is that any community
would ever NEED anything so badly as to be forced into such an
atrocious and costly way of getting it.  But I submit that this
problem actually lies with some of Traveller's basic mechanisms.
I know; this sounds like heresy from a priest, but here's my
thoughts on the matter:

FIRST: why the devil are so many people living in such absolutely
useless systems, anyway?  The subsector generation system IS easy
to use--ease being one of its great appeals and a major aid to
the initial  popularity of Traveller--but it ignores a number of
basic economic realities.  The most basic of which is; places
which already have air you can breathe, water you can drink, and
food you can eat are going to get the overwhelming amount of com-
mercial investment and population.  Those environments which of-
fer resources that can be `converted' to meet these needs without
undue hassle will be a strong second.  However, any community
which needs to invest heavily just to provide for its ongoing
basic environmental needs either has to be indispensable to some-
body's (national, personal, corporate) interest, sitting on top
of the interstellar equivalent of the South African diamond
mines, or is just plain masochistic.  Full life support is ex-
pensive and makes all in the environment hostage to the smallest
of errors or mishaps.
However, the Traveller UPP generation rules have given us the
universe we know, love, and vex at.  And in this universe, such
things as the RN are bound to occur.  People need what people
need (like pressure seals) and they will go to any lengths to get
it.  And enlightened decisions are not always made, nor are better
options always available (for proof of this, the history
of US space flight--is an often embarrassingly apt example).
The RN is indeed a rube goldberg contraption; it is SUPPOSED to
strike players at first as bizarre, comical, eccentric.  But
hopefully, a referee who strings the thread of Hard Times through
an adventure with such a craft (easily done via its NPC crew;
these are likely to be desperate men trying to make a living for
families that teeter on the edge of environmental extinction),
may also bring in shadings of the desperation of the times and
eventually, the sense that war is horrid folly that produces only
greater folly in its ashen aftermath.  The RN--and the failing
community it is trying to support--is an incarnation of that
follow-on folly.
SECOND: Given what I feel to be the errors of the UPP distribu-
tion and what it says (or rather, fails to say) about the
logistics and fiscal realities of colonization and survivability
in alien environments, there is the follow-on problem of travel
and commerce within the Imperium.  How DID all those hi-pop in-
dustrial worlds EVER feed themselves?  Answer; they COULDN't, not
and be economic powerhouses.  Anybody remember SOYLENT GREEN?
(Sorry; I forget Sheckley's original title.) [Make Room, Make Room --
James] Just feeding those masses would cripple industrial endeavors.
Logically, there would have to be an exchange basis--finished goods
exported for massive food imports. Bulk haulers as big as battleships;
modular containers each the size of the QE2 strung together on the belly
of a jump carrier--just to send nutritive additives to the Hi-pop world
this week (the bulk matter of the food could be produced locally without
a great deal of cost).
The notion of a lot of little independent jump ships hopping all
over in search of fun and adventure is pleasant, very PC-
empowering, and sold the game--but it just don't jive with the
framework of the universe as presented.
As a result, in Hard Times, worlds are not going to have built-in
self-sufficiency guarantees.  Everything points to the opposite,
if we are going to try to make economic sense out of the whole
mess.  (BTW, my high praise to whoever it was on TML that ob-
served that the TCS taxation rate was so extreme as to make
planets flee screaming from the thought of Imperial membership.
Reduction by 80-90 % produces a believable sum--and a believable
number of fleet assets.  Also, let's `fess up; the campaign sup-
port rules in both TCS and STRIKER are highly optimistic.  Why?
Because a reality that would prevent players from being able to
have lots of combats would defeat the purpose of the game itself.
In short, the numbers in those systems are DESIGNED to feed con-
flict, not be painstakingly realistic.  How's that for a
prolonged digression?)
..RM65/
The point of all this?  Without a high emphasis on self-
sufficiency many worlds are going to have to scramble to find
ways to meet their needs on their own.  Planets without access to
any complex organic materials are going to be in dire straits.
Pre TL-7 worlds are going to be even worse off, since their tech
nology does not allow very sophisticated molecular shuffling when
it comes to non-metallics, organics, and complex hydrocarbons.
Any such efforts will be expensive, crude, and subject to poor
QC.  Too poor for essential environmental seals, at any rate.

So worlds with all these limitations are going to have to either
a) trade for what they need, or b) make it themselves.  Choice c
is a great deal more grim.  In many areas, option a) might not
exist.  In that event, how do they pursue option b?  The basic
answer is to get access to the most complex hydrocarbon you can
and (with lots of pressure, trial and error, and crossed fingers)
squeeze some precious plastic out of it.  The key, of course, is
to start with something that is not merely a hydrocarbon, but a
petrochemical.  This is NOT a big deal once you reach TL 7, where
a number of advanced chemical reactant processes become avail
able.  But to someone with Korean War-Era technology,
petrochemical raw stock is a must-have first building block.

This makes the evolution of something like the RN class in
evitable.  If radioactives are locally available, the design can
be altered to a much more satisfactory, normal-looking result.
But that's not what I wanted to do; I wanted to represent a real
last-gasp ship design from a seal-using world which already had
two strikes against it; no in-system access to organics OR
fissionables.

Many such worlds would simply die out--many that depend on the RN
class would, eventually.  But assuming that humans in general do
not willingly go gentle into that deep night, I set myself the
task of finding a way to take a stab at meeting the needs of
such a community.

The RN class is only one such answer.  There ARE more elegant
solutions, but now we're getting into politics as well as
engineering ideals.  The optimum is not always what get's sup
ported.  And that's what I wanted to present; a
museum-piece display of desperate engineering.  It is only ill
- -advised if the colony dies off AND they had a better option (like
 en masse emigration).

In closing, allow me to say that I really enjoy looking at TML
and I regret that I don't have the time to participate regularly.
However, I always try to do a quick browse once a week--and am
always interested and excited by the stuff I see here.

Charles E. (Chuck) Gannon

#4345 High-population economics

Chuck Gannon writes:

>FIRST: why the devil are so many people living in such absolutely
>useless systems, anyway?  The subsector generation system IS easy
>to use--ease being one of its great appeals and a major aid to
>the initial  popularity of Traveller--but it ignores a number of
>basic economic realities.  The most basic of which is; places
>which already have air you can breathe, water you can drink, and
>food you can eat are going to get the overwhelming amount of com-
>mercial investment and population.  Those environments which of-
>fer resources that can be `converted' to meet these needs without
>undue hassle will be a strong second.  However, any community
>which needs to invest heavily just to provide for its ongoing
>basic environmental needs either has to be indispensable to some-
>body's (national, personal, corporate) interest, sitting on top
>of the interstellar equivalent of the South African diamond
>mines, or is just plain masochistic.  Full life support is ex-
>pensive and makes all in the environment hostage to the smallest
>of errors or mishaps.

This is all very true. One of the things I hope to see in TNE
is a more sensible world generation system. It wouldn't have to
be more complex than what we already have.

>SECOND: Given what I feel to be the errors of the UPP distribution and
>what it says (or rather, fails to say) about the logistics and fiscal
>realities of colonization and survivability in alien environments, there
>is the follow-on problem of travel and commerce within the Imperium. How
>DID all those hi-pop industrial worlds EVER feed themselves? Answer; they
>COULDN't, not and be economic powerhouses. Anybody remember SOYLENT GREEN?
>(Sorry; I forget >Sheckley's original title.) [Make Room, Make Room -- James]
>Just feeding those masses would cripple industrial endeavors.

I don't quite follow this argument. With fusion power it should be possible
to feed almost any amount of people. Hydroponics and carniculture plants is
a hackneyed stable of science fiction. Of course, I haven't done any numeric
analyses of what it takes to feed 5 billion people from hydroponics vats. (I
don't have the necessary knowledge). Perhaps it is impossible.

>                                               Logically, there would
>have to be an exchange basis--finished goods exported for massive food
>imports. Bulk haulers as big as battleships; modular containers each the
>size of the QE2 strung together on the belly of a jump carrier--just to
>send nutritive additives to the Hi-pop world this week (the bulk matter of
>the food could be produced locally without a great deal.

The trouble is that it is just as inconceivable that a high-population
world should _not_ be self-sufficient. I have no idea of how many kg.
of material is needed to serve half one person's yearly needs (that would
be the most economic use of the ships involved: Produce a surplus of half
the necesscities of life and import the other half), but each kg. would,
in the case of our 5 billion pop. world, require nearly 1 million tons of
starship to import it (somewhat less if all your trade partners are within
jump-1. On the other hand, any partner that is two jumps away will quadruple
the tonnage needed for the stuff you get from there). Take a simple matter
like personal transportation. Let's assume that one 5-person family in ten
has one grav vehicle. That makes 100 million grav vehicles. Say they have an
effective life of 5 years (not unreasonable, I think). That means a yearly
import of 20 million grav vehicles. The open-topped air/raft in _Imperial_
_Encyclopedia_ has a displacement of 2 T. That's 40 million T/year. One
ton of starship can import 6 T cargo per year (Assumption: Average cargo
space on pure cargo ships is 50%. You can get that up a bit by assuming
jump-1 ships only, but can you really assume that? I think not). So just
to cover that need you need 7 million tons of ship. Now add refrigerators,
toasters and hairdryers, and before you know it the number of ships you
need is litterally astronomical.

However, while I was writing the above, it occured to me that we are all
going about this the wrong way. Instead of arguing about what can be
explained (away) and what cannot, we should start with the result we want
to wind up with and work backwards from there.

Case in points: I don't like high-population worlds in general because of
their much too great contribution to naval budgets, and I dislike high-pop.
worlds with lousy physical characteristics because I can't really believe
in them. All right. How do I get rid of them? The economies of these worlds
really WERE highly specialized and interdependent (and never mind how that
was possible; as I've said before, if you can believe in a flat galaxy, you
can believe anything ;-). With the Hard Times most high-pop. worlds outside
the Safes failed catastrophically. Most high-pop. worlds inside the Safes
took warning and gradually switched to a more independent economy. The
change in population was accomplished by population control and emigration
instead of starvation, but the population declined one way or the other.
Thus there are less high-pop. and many more medium pop. planets in the New
Era.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     [email removed]
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir