Nuclear Power Plants

A thread of 6 messages, 30 April 1993 to 10 May 1993, in the order they were sent.

#5422 Nuclear Power Plants

Hi,

This is my first posting to the list but I've been following the
discussions for some time now.

The discussion about the fuel usage of nuclear power plants has been
here on the list several times now, but I was missing a revised table
of the power plants.

I'm not an engineer or physicst (only a CS student) so my calculations
may be wrong. Please correct me when you discover errors or miscalculations.

Basic Assumptions:
The fuel tanks of traveller spacecraft carry liquid hydrogen (for fusion power
plants) and its ordinary hydrogen.
I've covered deuterium using plants as a new type of fuision power plant.

FISSION: I use the figures from Rob Dean's article from Dec 1990
         (article number 1914)
         Fissionanbles are enriched to 5%, burn down to 1% and fission
	 power plants have a 30% efficiency.
	 Figure: 1.3 l per year per MW of power plant output.

FUSION:  Oridinary hydrogen reaction for "standard" fusion power plants is:

	   1                4
         4  H + 2 e    --->  He + 27.05 MeV
	   1                2

         Deuterium reaction:


                     3     1
		 /->  He +  n  + 3.72 MeV
           2    /    2     0
         2  H  /
           1   \	    (or with about even probabilty)
		\    3     1
		 \->  H  +  H  + 4.03 MeV
                     1     1

	 Average of 3.875 MeV

         1 Kg of hydrogen has (1 * 6.022 * 10^26)/1 atoms
	 1 l of hydrogen weighs 0.07 Kg, so it has 0.07 * 6.022 * 10^26
	 = 4.22 * 10^25 atoms. Fusing yields (4.22 * 10^25) / 4 * 27.05
	 = 2.85 * 10^26 MeV = 4.56 * 10^13 Ws = 12700 MWh

	 1 Kg of deuterium has (1 * 6.022 * 10^26)/2 atoms
	 1 l of deuterium weighs 0.14 Kg, so it has 0.14 * 6.022 * 10^26 / 2
	 = 4.22 * 10^25 atoms. Fusing yields (4.22 * 10^25) / 2 * 3.875
	 = 8.17 * 10^25 MeV = 1.31 * 10^13 Ws = 3630 MWh

	 (6.022 * 10^26 : Avogadro's number
	  1 MeV = 1.6 * 10^-13 watt seconds
	  MeV : Mega Electron Volt
          Ws  : Watt Seconds
	  MWh : MegaWatt Hours)

          Depending on what system we use (High Guard, MegaTraveller or
	  Striker) we arrive at different efficencies.
          With the ordinary hydrogen reaction, HG plants have a 0.1% eff.,
          MTrav plants a 0.016% eff. and Striker plants an efficiency of
          0.032%.
          With the deuterium reaction, the efficiencies are 0.3%, 0.05% and
          0.1% respectively.

	  I've made fusion power plants that are between 3% and 36%
          effcient. That should satisfy engineers and be still
          competitable with fission power.

ANTIMATTER: Antimatter reaction is just total conversion of matter to
            energy, so we can use the E = m * c^2 formula here.
	    1 Kg of matter yields 1 * c^2 = 25,000,000 MWh if totally
            converted to energy.
	    The efficiency for all antimatter plants is the same for
            all TLs. The Tl 17 plant yields 4,320,000 MWh per year and
            uses 250 TONS of matter for this. And this time the rest
            cannot simply be vented outside (THAT would leave a trail in
            an atmosphere). The antimatter plants thus have all an
            efficiency of 0.00007%.
	    I assume that the antimatter <-> matter reaction is
            100 % efficient and the conversion to electrical energy is about
            30 % efficient.

Enough theory, the table:

Type        |TL| Wt|Price| Min Vol |  Pow  |  Fuel|  Fuel Type   | Efficiency
=============================================================================
Fission     | 6| 8 | 0.1 |  5.00   |  1.0  |  1.3 | Radioactives |    ----
Fission     | 8| 6 | 0.1 |  2.00   |  1.5  |  1.5 | Radioactives |    ----
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Early Fusion| 9| 6 | 0.2 | 20.00   |  2.0  | 60.0 |  Deuterium   | 24%
Early Fusion|10| 5 | 0.2 |  4.00   |  2.0  | 50.0 |  Deuterium   | 29% - 10%
Early Fusion|11| 4 | 0.2 |  1.00   |  2.0  | 40.0 |  Deuterium   | 36% - 12%
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fusion      |12| 4 | 0.2 | 10.00   |  3.0  | 40.0 |  Hydrogen    | 15% - 10%
Fusion      |13| 3 | 0.2 |  2.00   |  4.0  | 40.0 |  Hydrogen    | 20% -  7%
Fusion      |14| 3 | 0.2 |  0.40   |  5.0  | 40.0 |  Hydrogen    | 26% -  4%
Fusion      |15| 2 | 0.2 |  0.10   |  6.0  | 40.0 |  Hydrogen    | 31% -  3%
Fusion      |16| 1 | 0.2 |  0.08   |  7.0  | 40.0 |  Hydrogen    | 36% -  3%
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Antimatter  |17| 6 | 0.5 |  8.00   |   500 |  0.5 |  Antimatter  | 35%
Antimatter  |18| 5 | 0.5 |  1.00   |  1000 |  1.0 |  Antimatter  | 35%
Antimatter  |19| 4 | 0.5 |  0.50   |  2500 |  2.5 |  Antimatter  | 35%
Antimatter  |20| 3 | 0.5 |  0.10   | 15000 | 15.0 |  Antimatter  | 35%
Antimatter  |21| 2 | 0.5 |  0.02   | 50000 | 50.0 |  Antimatter  | 35%
============================================================================
Wt is in tons per Kl of plant. Price is in MCr per Kl of plant.
Minimum Volume is in Kl. Pow is power output per Kl of plant.
Fuel is fuel usage in liter per year per Kl of plant.
Efficiency is the efficiency of the plants of the given level. The right
number is the efficiency for the largest plant (14+ Kl) and the left
number is the efficiency for the smallest possible plant for the given TL.

The only problem I've now is that the endurance of almost anything
nuclear powered is way too large and the jump drive fusion plants become
even more inefficient. A 250 MW laser could be powered for a whole year
with 0.56 Kl at TL 15.
Perhaps I should make the plants an order of magnitude less efficient
for the sake of game balance. Decrease efficiency by a factor of 40 ?
(The laser above would than need 1.85 Kl per month)

						Klaus

- --
 /     Klaus Moeller, Leiteweg 2, 2940 Wilhelmshaven, West - Germany       \
<    [email removed]                             [email removed]            >
 \             security is an exercise in applied paranoia                 /

#5423 Re: Nuclear Power Plants

In regard to the table that went up yesterday for power plants....

First, 5% enrichment is good for commercial electric generating stations
and the efficiency of 36% is good.

However, for any sort of space reactor propulsion, enrichment better go
up to near 60% or even higher depending on the fuel.  For the most part
the extra U-238 is just wasted weight (ok, maybe a little conversion to
plutonium but not much (relatively speaking.))

Also, efficiency for the space reactors is a lot higher than 36%
if you figure just for propulsion.  If you want to make some sort of
black box energy conversion for electrical energy production, I can
see something anywhere from 45 to 60 percent efficient within the next
few hundred years.  We're already looking at 40 percent and
up in some high tech applications today.

Also, this black box conversion from thermal energy to electrical energy
would be the same regardless of the power source, fission or fusion or
antimatter (for a given tech level.)

The "efficiency" better be defined before putting it in table form.  I think
most people are used to efficiency meaning "energy out/energy available"
(to be simplistic.)

The table is a good start (heck, all _I've_ done is criticize...Klaus did the
work!) but there are spots for improvement.

 *-=Carl=-*  INTERNET - [email removed] | In battle, you can do   |
             GEnie - C.FAGO1               | everything right...     |
 Carl Fago   State College, PA             | and _still_ lose!       |

#5431 Re: Nuclear Power Plants

Klaus Moeller [email removed] writes:
> Subject: Nuclear Power Plants

In general, your suggestions seem reasonable; however, I'd suggest that
one of the physics experts here on TML take a look at your fusion and
antimatter numbers.  I don't know enough about the subject to be sure,
but isn't a significant fraction of the energy carried away in particles
that aren't useful (like neutrinos)?


[email removed]
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future

#5432 Re: Nuclear Power Plants

Wrote this last Friday but looks like it got lost over the weekend when
Sunbane went down...
- -------------------------

In regard to the table that went up yesterday for power plants....

First, 5% enrichment is good for commercial electric generating stations
and the efficiency of 36% is good.

However, for any sort of space reactor propulsion, enrichment better go
up to near 60% or even higher depending on the fuel.  For the most part
the extra U-238 is just wasted weight (ok, maybe a little conversion to
plutonium but not much (relatively speaking.))

Also, efficiency for the space reactors is a lot higher than 36%
if you figure just for propulsion.  If you want to make some sort of
black box energy conversion for electrical energy production, I can
see something anywhere from 45 to 60 percent efficient within the next
few hundred years.  We're already looking at 40 percent and
up in some high tech applications today.

Also, this black box conversion from thermal energy to electrical energy
would be the same regardless of the power source, fission or fusion or
antimatter (for a given tech level.)

The "efficiency" better be defined before putting it in table form.  I think
most people are used to efficiency meaning "energy out/energy available"
(to be simplistic.)

The table is a good start (heck, all _I've_ done is criticize...Klaus did the
work!) but there are spots for improvement.

 *-=Carl=-*  INTERNET - [email removed] | In battle, you can do   |
             GEnie - C.FAGO1               | everything right...     |
 Carl Fago   State College, PA             | and _still_ lose!       |

#5437 Re: Nuclear Power Plants

Wildstar [email removed] said:
>                I don't know enough about the subject to be sure,
>but isn't a significant fraction of the energy carried away in particles
>that aren't useful (like neutrinos)?

I always thought the reason for the massive jump in fusion plant
power-to-mass ratio at TL 15 was that superdense matter technology enabled
the plant to capture some of the high-energy neutrinos produced by the
reaction and convert their energy to electrical power....

	Seth "the Lesser"

#5441 Re: Nuclear Power Plants

> First, 5% enrichment is good for commercial electric generating stations
> and the efficiency of 36% is good.
>
> However, for any sort of space reactor propulsion, enrichment better go
> up to near 60% or even higher depending on the fuel.  For the most part
> the extra U-238 is just wasted weight (ok, maybe a little conversion to
> plutonium but not much (relatively speaking.))

I haven't figured out this figures by myself. (I'm only a CS student.)
The table gets a lot more complicated when we're including enrichment
rate and burndown rate.
But you're right in that radioactives can be enriched to a much higher
degree. But I don't know about the risks in enriching radioactives to a
much higher degree. How safe is your reactor then ?
Handling becomes more dangerous with a higher enrichment rate as you
get to the critical mass more quickly. "Burning Through" your reactor
is also easier.
Besides, the power plants should be used for civilian and military
vessels alike. This might not be very realistic.
And then there's the question of cost efficiency. How expensive
would be fuel enriched to 10%, 25%, 50%, or even 75% or 90% ?
Lastly, highly enriched radioactives (90% or more enrichment) make bomb
grade material. As Imperial law make clear that nuclear bombs are for
nobody but the imperial military, I don't think that imperial authorities
allow highly enriched nuclear material to be carried aroound like
gasoline.

Perhaps I can include a variety of new fuel types. Like
Radioactives with 5%, 10%, 25%, 50% and 75% enrichment.
Enriching radioactives is a very complicated task I've heard  and gets
more complicated the higher the enrichment, so the
price would increase proportional to the square of the enrichment rate while
efficiency would only increase linearly as less fuel is needed with
higher enrichment rate.

> Also, efficiency for the space reactors is a lot higher than 36%
> if you figure just for propulsion.  If you want to make some sort of
> black box energy conversion for electrical energy production, I can
> see something anywhere from 45 to 60 percent efficient within the next
> few hundred years.  We're already looking at 40 percent and
> up in some high tech applications today.

Well, my first attempt of the table at home had a conversion efficiency
of 60% for fusion plants but assumed a much lower rate of fusing atoms.
The efficiency was around 16% then. (In fact, I was simply increasing
the efficiency of MT fusion plants by 1000.)

> Also, this black box conversion from thermal energy to electrical energy
> would be the same regardless of the power source, fission or fusion or
> antimatter (for a given tech level.)
> The "efficiency" better be defined before putting it in table form.  I think
> most people are used to efficiency meaning "energy out/energy available"
> (to be simplistic.)

The efficiency is in the table, because I figured in the scale efficiency
from the rules. (I don't know if they're reasonable). Some of the low tech
fusion plants have minimum size that are above the size for large scale plants.
(The TL 9 early fusion plant has a minimum size of 20 Kl which is above
the 11 Kl figure that triples fusion plant output.) On the other hand, not
all plants can be build under the lowest scale efficiency (which cuts down
output by 75%).

My major concern is about the balance in the design system when this table
is used. Nuclear powered starships can use their maneuver drive, weapons, etc.
now for years and still have much less space devoted to fuel storage than
before. I haven't done designs with it yet, but it would influence
design in many ways. Commercial ships can have much more cargo space,
military ships can have much more weapons with a higher energy usage and
get much more expensive this way...

One way out of this would be to drop the reactionless drives and keep
only antigrav drives and have fusion rockets for deep space maneuvering.
The thrust of anti grav would not drop by 50% after
10 planetary diameters but I would use something like
100 % for up to 10 diameters
 50 % beyond 10 diameters
 25 % beyond 20 diameters
 11 % beyond 30 diameters
 6  % beyond 40 diameters
 4  % beyonf 50 diameters
 and so on down to 1 % or no thrust beyond 100 diameters

This way, spaceships are forced to use fusion rockets when they are going to
another planet but anti grav would be enough to reach geostationary orbit.
The fuel for the fusion rockets must be then included on top of the
fuel for the power plant(s). This could perhaps even thing out a bit.
There was a table about fusion rockets on the list a year ago or so.
The consumpition rate was around 1 KL per hour per 200 thrust if I
remember correctly. The table was not complete but perhaps the one who
posted it has worked on it since then ?
The nice side effect would be the elemination of the reactionless thrusters
and their physical impossiblities.

(High Tech)Deep Space going craft would then have three drive systems.
Antigrav for use inside a planets atmosphere. (I don't like the
idea of using fusion rockets inside an atmosphere.)
Fusion rockets outside the 10 diameter limit.
And jump drive for interstellar distances.

					Klaus

- --
 /     Klaus Moeller, Leiteweg 2, 2940 Wilhelmshaven, West - Germany       \
<    [email removed]                             [email removed]            >
 \             security is an exercise in applied paranoia                 /