>From Phil:
>>>Phil:
>>>The dream of the
>>>ideal society where all one's needs & wants will be, at the very least,
>>>seriously considered is a very powerful lure. In my case, I find that
>>>it's very, very difficult for me to accept that this is possible, psionics
>>>or not.
>
>>Hans:
>>Why? It's been achieved on Earth in limited areas for brief periods of
>>time. All that is needed is that the society produces more than its
>>citizens need (That dosen't mean that any such society will achieve it,
>>just that its possible in those circumstances).
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>Reminds me of some of the accounts, written by the slavemasters, of course,
>describing the "utopia" of plantation life. Reminds me of a book about
>Darwin I read a long time ago. He talks about visiting a plantatiion in
>Brazil, where the master assured him that this was a virtual heaven on
>earth. He even trotted out his slaves & sure enough, not a single one
>expressed the wish to be free! Well, Darwin wasn't fooled. He knew
>a slave society when he saw one & so do I!
And noone is going to tell you anything different, dammit! Right? You seem
emotionaly, almost religiously, unwilling to explore even the possibility
that it could work. Now, I have my own doubts about the Zhodani, but they
are based on the history of the Consulate. So I'm really just playing
devil's advocate here. Still, there is one crucial difference between a
psionic society and any society we've ever seen on Earth that makes me
wonder. What, you ask? See below.
>The problem isn't producing
>more than the citizens *need*, it's producing more than the citizens *want*.
I can't resist the temptation to point out that thanks to the Tavrchedl'
the citizens don't want more than they get. But that really wasn't my point.
The example I'm thinking about is the Scandinavian countries ind the 6th
and 7th decade of this century which your words "all one's needs & wants
will be, at the very least, seriously considered" fits to a 't'. Nor should
such abundance be hard to achieve in any technologically based society that
is willing to practice population control. (Which most of the societies in
Traveller space, the Aslans not excluded, obviously does).
>I submit that the Zhodani have no where near as much as they want and their
>society's behavior reflects that. On the other hand their expansion could
>just be old fashioned 'crusading', I suppose. Just as bad, IMO.
Yes, I think that crusading is closer to the mark than wants. Not that
they've done any crusading for the last couple of millenia.
>>>I find that I just can't believe that a monolithic society, of
>>>any sort, could be preferable to a diverse one.
>
>>Hans:
>>Whoa! Where does it say that Zhodani society is monolitic? How would you
>>like a diverse society where nobody lies, cheats, or steals? Might that
>>not be worth considering?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>It's right there in the books. It's the job of the Tavrchedl, as the "Sword
>& Shield" the Zhodani ruling class, to ensure conformity.
Yes, but conformity to what? The notion that lying, cheating, and stealing
is bad, or total cultural conformity? The first, definitely. The second,
perhaps, but not necessarily so on the evidence.
>All dissimilar
>cultures *must* yield to the Zhodani "One True Vision", or else, as the
>Imperium has found out a number of times. As I said before, it's the na-
>ture of such regimes. The greatest threat to them is the existence of
>*any* other form of society.
This seems not to be the case once one examine the number of times the
Imperium has found that out closer. The Zhodani attacks have all been
defensive in concept (their concept; let's not get involved in any
discussion about the morality of pre-emptive strikes. I don't believe
in them, but the Zhodani obviously does). Evidence: The failure of the
Zhodani to attack and assimilate the Domain.
>"Nobody lies, steals & cheats"? Give me a break! Nobody *but* the ruling
>class you mean.
No, I mean _nobody_. According to the rules lying is a special skill taught
by covert services.
>(Remember, *they* get the benefit of rights, unlike the teeming "masses".)
Do they?
>Of course, if *everyone* had the right to pyshic privacy then the Tavrchedl
>couldn't do their job.
A noble will still know that he can't hide the truth if he ever gets
investigated. He may not be subject to routine examinations (though why
not if the Tavrchedl' really is a medical service? Scott? What does it
say about that in _Zhodani_? Unfortunately I don't have it available at
the moment).
>But after all, these proles are just inferior creatures anyway, aren't they?
>They *need* to be cared for so they don't do themselves harm. (Now, where
>have I *heard* that before?) Any society that believes that it's fine ,
>even desirable, to exclude such a portion of their population from enjoying
>any sort of inherent rights, cannot be a Utopia. Medieval, yes; utopia, no.
First of all, you are the one who brought up the Utopia motif in the first
place, and back then you exemplified it by talking about wants and needs
being considered. By that definition I think that the Zhodani way of life
_could_ be as good as they claim. As for rights, you're still considering
it a given that mental examinations always, in all circumstances, is a
violation of the person concerned. The Zhodani consider such examinations
medical ones. I Denmark we have for decades had mandatory innoculations of
all children for several diseases. Sticking needles into people and
forcing them to swallow unpleasant fluids! What a violation! Still, I'm
quite glad that my chances of getting consumption from some passing
stranger is quite a lot less than it could have been. Nor do I feel
myself much of a slave for the experience (What I have to do to pay my
taxes, now, _that_ makes me feel like a slave sometimes ;-).
Btw. as I said above, I don't have my copy of _Zhodani_ available. If you
can find a reference to the nobles being _by right_ extempt from mental
examination then I'll admit that you've proved a point about the Zhodani.
> Phil:
>>>Therefore I don't think
>>>it's too surprising that I treat the benevolent assessments of Zhodani
>>>rule as basic propaganda. Just because they're psionic doesn't mean that
>>>they're not capable of just as much treachery & deceit as anyone else.
>
>>Hans:
>>Actually, they're not (at least, not going by the rules). They have to
>>be specially _trained_ to lie, for example.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>Doesn't *everyone* have to learn to lie.
No. It's self-taught. You try it out, it works, you try again, you get
found out, you experience the consequences of being found out, you
gradually work out wether its worth the risks, etc. Eventually you mature
(if you do; some people don't) and start to consider the moral implications
of lying. Show me a child with a strong moral sense and I'll show you a
child whose parents have indoctrinated him with those strong moral precepts.
(OK, I'll admit to the possibility of a rare, naturally honest person, but
I haven't heard of any yet (Except Jesus Christ, of course ;-)).
>No doubt it doesn't take long to
>learn that much can be gained from lying. Just as in any human society.
>(Zhodani *were* still human, last I heard)
But that's exactly the point! That's the crucial difference between a
psionic society and our. A Zhodani (prole and noble alike) has grown up
learning that _he ALWAYS gets found out_!!! If not by his neighbourhood
Tavrchedl' councellor then by his psionically gifted parents. By the
time he is grown up honesty is a conditioned reflex with him.
>>>Phil:
>>>In short, the Zhodani system just sounds too good to be true.
>
>>Hans:
>>As someone else pointed out, that's why they're _alien_!
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>And, as I've pointed out, they're also human too! With all the millenia
>of common terran evolution still embedded in their "human nature". On the
> other hand, I suppose someone could say there's an "alien" society not too
> far from where I live. It's called the Republic of Mexico!
You think about the implications of growing up _knowing_ beyond a shadow
of a doubt that lying is impossible and then tell me if you don't think
any society that grows from that wouldn't seem far more alien to you
than Mexico.
Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
[email removed]
- ------------
"A subsector official pompously states that the
subsector armed forces have four Kinunir class
ships in service, each with enough troop strength
to put down any military operations that threathen
the peace of the Imperium."
---Adventure 1, The Kinunir