Phil:
>A number of you, speaking form the Zhodani point of view, have made
>some very persuasive arguments. I, of course, was speaking from the
>Imperial view. I believe that what GDW has done here is tap into the
>"Utopian Ideal" that's been around for as long as I can remember. This
>idea, creating the "perfect" society was especially popular in the late
>'60s thru the 70's. As witnessed by the numerous "alternative lifestyles"
>that many people 'experimented' with. The creation of Traveller towards
>the end of this era no doubt had an influence, IMO. The dream of the
>ideal society where all one's needs & wants will be, at the very least,
>seriously considered is a very powerful lure. In my case, I find that
>it's very, very difficult for me to accept that this is possible, psionics
>or not.
Hans:
Why? It's been achieved on Earth in limited areas for brief periods of
time. All that is needed is that the society produces more than its
citizen needs (That dosen't mean that any such society will achieve it,
just that its possible in those circumstances).
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Phil:
Reminds me of some of the accounts, written by the savemasters, of
course, describing the "utopia" of plantation life. Reminds me
of a book about Darwin I read a long time ago. He talks about visiting a
plantatiion in Brazil, where the master assured him that this was a virtual
heaven on earth. He even trotted out his slaves & sure enough, not a single
one expressed the wish to be free! Well, Darwin wasn't fooled. He knew
a slave society when he saw one & so do I! The problem isn't producing
more than the citizens *need*, it's producing more than the citizens *want*.
I submit that the Zhodani have no where near as much as they want and their
society's behavior reflects that. On the other hand their expansion could
just be old fashioned 'crusading', I suppose. Just as bad, IMO.
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Phil:
>I find that I just can't believe that a monolithic society, of
>any sort, could be preferable to a diverse one.
Hans:
Whoa! Where does it say that Zhodani society is monolitic? How would you
like diverse society where nobody lies, cheats, or steals? Might that
not be worth considering?
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Phil:
It's right there in the books. It's the job of the Tavrchedl, as the "Sword
& Shield" the Zhodani ruling class, to ensure conformity. All dissimilar
cultures *must* yield to the Zhodani "One True Vision", or else, as the
Imperium has found out a number of times. As I said before, it's the na-
ture of such regimes. The greatest threat to them is the existence of
*any* other form of society.
"Nobody lies, steals & cheats"? Give me a break! Nobody *but* the ruling
class you mean. (Remember, *they* get the benefit of rights, unlike the
teeming "masses".) Of course, if *everyone* had the right to pyshic pri-
vacy then the Tavrchedl couldn't do their job. But after all, these proles
are just inferior creatures anyway, aren't they? They *need* to be cared
for so they don't do themselves harm. (Now, where have I *heard* that be-
fore?) Any society that believes that it's fine , even desirable, to ex-
clude such a portion of their population from enjoying any sort of inher-
ent rights, cannot be a Utopia. Medieval, yes; utopia, no.
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Phil:
>Therefore I don't think
>it's too surprising that I treat the benevolent assessments of Zhodani
>rule as basic propaganda. Just because they're psionic doesn't mean that
>they're not capable of just as much treachery & deceit as anyone else.
Hans:
Actually, they're not (at least, not going by the rules). They have to
be specially _trained_ to lie, for example.
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Phil:
Doesn't *everyone* have to learn to lie. No doubt it doesn't take long to
learn that much can be gained from lying. Just as in any human society.
(Zhodani *were* still human, last I heard)
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Phil:
>In short, the Zhodani system just sounds too good to be true.
Hans:
As someone else pointed out, that's why they're _alien_!
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Phil:
And, as I've pointed out, they're also human too! With all the millenia
of common terran evolution still embedded in their "human nature". On the
other hand, I suppose someone could say there's an "alien" society not too
far from where I live. It's called the Republic of Mexico!
As Catie said; "they're *still* slaves." (sic). A slave society is
still a slave society & I just can't see how that could be considered
anything but a dystopia.
Phil Pugliese
ppugliese.pimacc.pima.edu