Lo-tech moon shot

"ER........" [email removed] writes:
>
> Problem: 1-5 Individuals of tech 6-8 stranded on an earth type world at TL0,
> their only means of returning to civilisation is to get to the TL15 vessel on
> the planets moon.
>
> Question: Given time (assuming anagathics if nescessary) could a ship be
> built to get to the moon?

If anyone answers "yes", could they please inform NASA, ESA or some other
suitable organisation of how they propose to do it? :-)

- --
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  [email removed]
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian  |  ARPA:  [email removed]

>Problem: 1-5 Individuals of tech 6-8 stranded on an earth type world at TL0,
>their only means of returning to civilisation is to get to the TL15 vessel on
>the planets moon.
>
>Question: Given time (assuming anagathics if nescessary) could a ship be
>built to get to the moon?
>
>One solution offered thus far is a lo-tech Lifting Plane that is got upto
>hi altitude by balloons.

I think it would be EXTREMELY unlikely given any sensible amount of time
(less than 1000yrs say). Hi-altitude planes are useless as are ballons since
both require an atmosphere to work. Even assuming they produced some sort
of thruster (say evaporating water into the vacuum - rockets require liquid
O2 which is a not possible without complex cooling apparatus) they would
need a computer to plot the course and control the craft (even to do this you
have to have some means of determining your position in space). A further
problem is the velocity change (delta-v) that they would require to land safely
on the moon, water thrusters would be nowhere near powerful enough.

However it might be possible if they landed on the planet with vacc suits,
given a generous ref :-). Using the high altitude glider + balloons to gain
altitude they could then have constructed some simple rockets fueled with,
say alcohol, and use the remaining atmosphere coupled with the oxygen
supplies from some of their vacc suits - this would be a one man trip only.
These rockets could then thrust the one pilot out of the planets gravity
given a thruster pack attached to his vacc suit and towards the moon.
This one guy then has the time it takes him to reach the moons surface from
maximum vacc suit communication range to tell the TL15 ship to pick him
up - otherwise he's dead. (A kinder alternative would be to allow him
to achieve orbit round the moon - but that might overtax his vacc suit's
computer, prehaps a decaying orbit? :-)

Hope that gives you some ideas,

Roger

> Subject: Lo-tech moon shot

> Problem: 1-5 Individuals of tech 6-8 stranded on an earth type world at TL0,
> their only means of returning to civilisation is to get to the TL15 vessel on
> the planets moon.

> Question: Given time (assuming anagathics if nescessary) could a ship be
> built to get to the moon?

> One solution offered thus far is a lo-tech Lifting Plane that is got upto
> hi altitude by balloons.

> PAVEWAY

I would probably forget the lifting-plane/balloon idea.  They will eventually
need a rocket and a guidance system anyway to get to the moon.  They would
probably be best served by concentrating on that objective, then building one
BIG enough to get them into orbit.

As far as accomplishing it, there are a few factors to consider:

o What are their skills and aptitudes?  If a few of them are astronauts and
  the others are engineers and skilled craftsmen, then they would have a
  better chance.  It would take years to build up a technological base to
  even try to accomplish the task, though.  They would need metal foundries,
  a way to generate the propellant, probably electrical generators, etc.

o Do they have help from the natives?  This could lead to some interesting
  campaign developments.  If they could learn to communicate with the natives
  they could set up a religious following where the "priests" are taught to
  select the most intelligent of their followers to become priests themselves
  in the PC's "holy city".  Some would go back into the world.  Others would
  work on improving the technological base.  Some would eventually be able to
  learn skills that the PC's don't possess (eg: none of them could ever quite
  get the hang of celestial navigation, even though they understood the basic
  concepts).  This offers many plot variations.  The commoners (and perhaps
  most of the priests) would consider the technology magic.  They might react
  badly to this or to the priesthood (which steals their children).  The
  religion would have to teach ethics, morality, and spirituality (like a
  real religion) to keep the commoners happy.  The world might get "turned
  on" to technology.  Wars could be waged.  The PC's could be regarded as
  gods.  The PC's might have children (by other PC's or natives).  What will
  happen when the PC's leave?

I think with the right set of skills, the PC's should be able to rebuild the
technological base necessary.  The problem is that if they are missing any
skills, they would have no way to learn them, unless they had a "how things
work" book.

Even if they understand all of the skills that they need, they might not have
the aptitude for certain things.  They also would probably need raw muscle.
The natives could help here, as well as developing some (very few) skills
once they are taught the basics about a field.

You as GM could guide them along the religion lines through some type of
developments (the natives begin bringing offerings, perhaps), and then show
them that it is not easy being a god (when they have to teach the natives to
stop eating each other).  Once they start referring to the natives as "their
people", you have them hooked.

By the way, where are they going to get anagathics?

,-----------------.
|Gerald S Williams|
|[email removed]|
|  [phone removed] |
`-----------------'

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   /   /        /    /          /      /   /    /   /     /     ____
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>Problem: 1-5 Individuals of tech 6-8 stranded on an earth type
>world at TL0,  their only means of returning to civilisation is to get
>to the TL15 vessel on  the planets moon.
>Question: Given time (assuming anagathics if nescessary) could a
>ship be built to get to the moon?

     Knowledge is always a powerful tool. Assuming they have access to
a data bank (such as is in their ship on the moon) they should be able
to build something. One question is `How did they get there'? Did they
crash their shuttle? If that's the case rebuilding would be easier than
building from scratch. If they were abandoned with no resources other
than their wits, well... Could _you_ build a pocket calculator from a
sandy beach? I mean, most of the materials are there, so why not? The
single biggest advantage they have is this: They KNOW it can be done!
     There was a book by, I think, Jerry Pournelle called "King David's
Spaceship" in which a low tech civilization had to build a successful
spaceship to qualify for membership in a high-tech alliance. Their
solution, using explosives to litterally `blast off', was interesting,
and might apply.
     brucer

> From: "ER........" [email removed]
> Subject: Lo-tech moon shot

> Problem: 1-5 Individuals of tech 6-8 stranded on an earth type world at TL0,
> their only means of returning to civilisation is to get to the TL15 vessel on
> the planets moon.
>
> Question: Given time (assuming anagathics if nescessary) could a ship be
> built to get to the moon?

  What do you mean by TL0? TL0 covers everything from Joe Neandethal with his
trusty cudgel to the Roman Empire tech with concrete, siege machinery and
extremely crude steam engines.

  But I'm leaning towards not possible. No way in the Joe Neanderthal case
and probably no way in the Roman case.

  The main problem is materials tech. Is black powder good enough to reach
escape velocity? Is the metalwork TL high enough to make an air-tight ship?
How about the engine, will the materials hold together? Even if you get to
orbit with it and it is tight enough, is it possible to construct maneuvering
thrusters for orbital injections (main problem: igniting and shutting them
off).

  Do they have some higher-TL equipment like the wreakage of a small craft?
Then it might be possible to strap something together using the grav plates
from the craft powered by a steam-engine driven generator (possible at
Roman TL).

  Is there any relic tech just lying around?

  How big resources do they have? Pharao-level or peasant-level?

> PAVEWAY

- -bertil-
- --
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

here is the message I sent to ER..... and the reply I got which covers
some of the question that other people had.

johno


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Forwarded: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 22:20:52 -0400
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To: "ER........" [email removed]
Cc: [email removed]
Subject: Re: Lo-tech moon shot
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 17 Aug 1993 17:51:00 GMT."
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 22:12:09 -0400
From: "John C. Orthoefer" [email removed]


> Problem: 1-5 Individuals of tech 6-8 stranded on an earth type world at TL0,
> their only means of returning to civilisation is to get to the TL15 vessel on
> the planets moon.
>
> Question: Given time (assuming anagathics if nescessary) could a ship be
> built to get to the moon?

I'd like to know a bit more, I don't have enough information.  Is it
1-5 people on a tech level 6-8, with a general population of several
million?  Or is this a Desert Island kinda problem?  Also do they have
access to TL 15 (or TL 6-8) computers?  Do they have cash for that
world?  Or even Astromomey books?  What kind of education?

My guess is you have a desert island type problem.  And my answer is I
don't think so.  Just to hit a moon, you need a computer and/or some
very good astromony insterments (yes, the first orbits were don't on
chalkboards, but that was really the results of 300 years of science.)

To build a rocket engine (even solid fuel) you need to know 100's of
years of knowlege of Chemistry, metalurgy and fuild dynamics.  Solid
fuel can be harder, because you are burning explovies, how do you keep
it from lighting up all at once?  How do you make a fuel which burns
on it's one oxidizer?

If you have a chemistry book you (at least I think I could) can figure
out the chemistry you need.

To make the trip it takes Liquid O2, or even pressurized gas.  You
need Liquid O2 for a Liquid fuel engine.  To store gases you need
Steel flasks.  And GOOD pressure/vaccuum pumps.   5 people in several
life times couldn't mine enough steel.

They would also have to have a transport system to make it work.  I
can't think of any one place on this planet with everything you need
sitting in one place.  So you need a real infrastructure, like the
US's.

If the planet has people that you can work and educate, even TL 0
slaves.  And your people have computers to plot the moons orbit and
guide the ship (you need ATLEAST simple analog computers, which I
couldn't build, but I think someone being creative with some TL7
laptops might be able to hack something).

The scale of the earth/moon system is hitting a golfball about 3000 mi
(or 4800 Km) and missing by inches (Cm).  And this is all assuming
that have been able to build a self contained rocket motor.  Which is
assuming you have a cabin which will support life for 3 days.

The simple final answer 5 people with no prefab parts, no way.  5
people with no prefab parts but some labor maybe with lots of luck. 5
people with lots of TL 6-8 people, of course.

For more insite, subscribe to the space-tech mailing list.  For a
story that is roughly equivent to your problem look at Riverworld
books by Farmer (I think).

In the books if you don't know Mark Twain builds a riverboat out of
very little (really he builds two, and people at the same site build
an air ship too) and a riverboat is MUCH simpler than getting living
beings out of the atmosphere.  And they didn't have to worry about
feeding themselves.

Hope this doesn't total blow you away.  But when you better define the
problem I might beable to get you some more ideas of hangups.

johno

[email removed]




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Forwarded: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 17:09:47 -0400
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Date: Wed, 18 Aug 93 18:09 GMT
From: "ER........" [email removed]
To: JCO [email removed]
Subject: Re: Lo-tech moon shot

Ok here is what I have,

	At least one man with a technical background upto 1940's level of tech

	A pile of basic engineering, chemistry, mining and physics books.

	Some Precision TL 8 micrometers, vernier caliper and lenses

	A pile of anagathics

	A map of the planetry resources

	A region rich in Nitrate deposits, oil and minerals.

	(possibly) some TL 0 primitives to use to do grunt work.

	A tall mountain

	A BIG lake

If you had plenty of time to calculate the orbit, could you build a 1 use
dedicated analog calculator to do the burn times etc?

I beleive the German Me233 Komet had a very easy to build rocket engine
maybe that would do? Pumps are tricky but not impossible surely?
Do you have to use steel? for low stress 1 use applications at least?
Life support may not be a problem (a vaccsuit with enough air MAY be available)

No prefab parts tho....
thanks for the reply

PAVEWAY


PAS could you forward this back to me (I forgot to make a copy) :)



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