reality checks bouncing

A thread of 3 messages, 22 January 1994 to 26 January 1994, in the order they were sent.

#6666 reality checks bouncing

I see we've abandoned reality in the rules again. First I see the post
about the HEPLAR drive violating the conservation of energy. Then I see
Loren's post regarding the 1 kw required for a 60 km range on a radio.

Let's hit the radio first. Loren stays that the 60km is "short" range,
and that the range bands double until you reach extreme range at 240 km.
Sorry, but that won't work.  Amatuer radio operators are limited to 1
kw. And they *routinely* achieve "planetary" range at *AND BELOW* those
power levels. A *5* watt CB can routinely achieve 30 km ranges, given a
decent antenna. And when "skip" is a dactor, they can make
intercontinental contacts (not reliably though!).

So *two* changes need to be made for radio. First, the power levels
need to go *down*, or the ranges need to go up. Second, somewhere
between 20 and 100 MHZ, the signals quit bouncing off the ionosphere (if
the planet has one). At that point, range is *restricted* to
line-of-sight. Below it, you can reach whatever range you have the power
for. Oh yeah, the amount of interference has a *major* effect on
*usable* range. :-)

Now for the drive problem. This is a twofold problem also. Reaction drives give
a vehicle velocity by imparting velocity to reaction mass, which goes in the
  other direction. So a constant power input gives a constant exhaust velocity,
and a constant acceleration.

Reactionless drives are converting power plant energy into kinetic
energy (via some sort of magic, as this violates a couple of
conservation laws). But the problem here is that kinetic energy is
proportional to the velocity *squared*. So the amount of energy that it
takes to go from 100 m/s to 200 m/s is 4 times that required to go from
0 to 100 m/s. That means that you *can't* get a sustained acceleration
at a constant power output!

If you can convert power plant energy directly to *momentum*, then you
could get a constant acceleration from a constant input energy. But
you'd be breaking more laws.

Here's the kinetic energy of 1 ton at various speeds:

m/s     MJ
- ------- -------------
100       5
200      20
300      45
400      80
500     125
600     180
700     245
800     320
900     405
1e3     500

For a reaction drive, the acceleration is equal to:

sqrt(2*(power plant output)*(drive efficiency)/(mass of ship))

So a 1 megawatt plant in a 1 ton hull with a 100% efficient drive
will give:

Sqrt(2*1e6*1/1e3)=44.7 m/s^2 of acceleration.

That's about 4.6 gravities.

With a nore reasonable drive effieciency, things drop rapidly. (You *don't*
want to know what the efficiency of an internal combustion engine is. :-)
- --
uucp: [email removed]
Internet: [email removed]

#6669 Re: Reality checks bouncing

[email removed] (Leonard Erickson) says:
> .... Second, somewhere
> between 20 and 100 MHZ, the signals quit bouncing off the ionosphere (if
> the planet has one). At that point, range is *restricted* to
> line-of-sight. Below it, you can reach whatever range you have the power
> for. Oh yeah, the amount of interference has a *major* effect on
> *usable* range. :-)

Actually, it IS possilbe to get non-line-of-sight signals reliably
through at frequencies around 4-5 GHz.  The effect is known as
troposcatter.  The US Army uses this for medium range multi-channel
radio shots.  Typical ranges are in the 50 to 200 mile range.  For
up to around 50, the Army uses line-of-sight radios, and above this
range, the Army uses satellites.

It is very true that interference has a vast impact on ranges.  Another
factor influencing range is terrain.  In Desert Storm, the Army
discovered they could get longer ranges out of their line-of-sight
radios than it was rated for when used over the sand.

I do agree with you that for the radios listed, the power consumption
is way too high.  The highest power radio the Army uses is the Tropo
radios.  Those have a power consumption in the 1-2 kW range.  All
other radios are less than that.

One of these days, when I get time and get settled in my new house,
I'll try to organize some of the information I have on Army radios
and send it out.

- - David Paxson
[email removed]

#6702 Re: reality checks bouncing

[email removed] (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> Subject: reality checks bouncing

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> So *two* changes need to be made for radio. First, the power levels
> need to go *down*, or the ranges need to go up. Second, somewhere
> between 20 and 100 MHZ, the signals quit bouncing off the ionosphere (if
> the planet has one). At that point, range is *restricted* to
> line-of-sight.

It seems as though GDW assumed that both the transmitter and the reciever
would be using low-efficency omnidirectional antennas, and if you want to
get any sort of directional antenna, you have to buy a 'maser'
communicator.

Seriously, though, I've got an off-the-cuff suggestion to "fix" the radio
range problem (and yes, it *is* a problem).  What about the following:

Unless special conditions apply, any planet with a thin, standard, or dense
atmosphere (tainted or not) has an ionosphere.  The referee should determine
the presence or absence of an ionosphere in other cases (none, trace, and
very thin normally don't, while exotic, corrosive, and insidious normally
do).

Radio communicators should be designated as 'space' or 'planetary' when
constructed (this is a rough idea of it's frequency capabilities).  'Space'
radios are designed to take advantage of radio windows in planetary
atmospheres to be able to line-of-sight broadcasts through the ionosphere.
'Planetary' communicators take advantage of the ionospheres to bounce
signals around the planet.  For existing designs, spacecraft are assumed to
be equipped with 'space' radios, while planetary vehicles are assumed to be
equipped with 'planetary' radios.

'Planetary' communicators of 1kw or more can be recieved anywhere on the
planet, as if at long range.  'Space' communicators follow the standard
rules.

The second change I would suggest is that the range of the *transmitter* be
used to determine the range (the range rating of the reciever being
irrellevant in this case).  Of course, if you are trying to establish 2-way
communication, both sides will be transmitting, limiting the range of 2-way
conversation to the shortest of the ranges of the communicators involved.

However, you should be able to use the energy gathering qualities of a dish
antenna, combined with powerful low-noise amplification provided by a maser
or the more efficient TWT (travelling wave tube) amplifiers, to improve the
eception range.  This is assuming that the FF&S radio communicators are
designed assuming an omnidirectional antenna on both the transmitter and
reciever, and that FF&S 'maser' communicators represent any radio with a
directional transmit or recieve antenna.  The change I propose is as
follows:

You may use radio communicators and maser communicators in together.  The
short range of such a combination is the longer of either half the short
range of the maser communicator, or the shorter of the ranges of the two
communicators.  For example, if a radiocomm of 60km was used to communicate
with a 30,000km masercomm, the short range would be 15,000km.  On the other
hand, the short range of a 30,000km masercomm and a 30,000km radiocomm is
30,000km.

No, it's not perfect, but it just might be a 'quick-n-dirty'
fix.  Any other comments?


> Now for the drive problem.

Well, Traveller maneuver drives have never conserved energy.  Violating
conservation of energy makes interplanetary travel much more 'interesting',
in that it doesn't take unreasonable amounts of time to get where you're
going.

The HEPlaR drive as detailed in FF&S is *COMPLETELY* and *TOTALLY*
impossible, and breaks at least three different physical laws.  If this
bothers you, work out some guidelines for "reasonable" drives (you've gotten
off to a good start in your post) and go ahead and use them.

However, HEPlaR drive makes Brilliant Lances space combat interesting and
playable.  Other drives would profoundly affect the game, and you should
consider the playability effects that this would have (not to mention you
would have considerable work to do to prepare new ship designs and new rules
for your new drive).

If HEPlaR bothers you only a little bit (and that's about the category it
falls in for me), slap a reality patch on it, and buy some overdraft
protection for your reality checks, and then you don't have to worry about
it ;-)


[email removed]
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