How long can your fleet endure?

A thread of 5 messages, 14 December 1989 to 18 December 1989, in the order they were sent.

#751 How long can your fleet endure?

I found this in sci.military and thought it would be of interest
to those of you who have active military campaigns (and martial
players):
	Richard Johnson
- -----------------------------------------
>From: [email removed] (Dale Borgeson)

in article [email removed], [email removed] (Henry Spencer) says:
>
> My recollection is that off Vietnam, typical carrier operations were
> something like 7 days "on the line" followed by 4 days off to replenish
> fuel and munitions.

	I was in a fighter squadron (VF-114) on the Kitty Hawk from
	1970 to 1973. This included two combat cruises to Vietnam.
	On later crusises (72), the AOE class supply ships (I think
	AOE is the correct ship type) like the Kansas City and
	Sacramento were available for unrep (underway replenishment).
	The AOE carries everything; food, JP-5, avgas, ordinance, spare
	parts, and ship fuel (NSFO & ND):one stop shopping.

	With the AOE the the rate of replenishment was mostly determined
	by ordinance. in 72 we were using a lot of bombs ( > 200 tons/day ).
	We would fly for 12 hours and break for 12 hours. we would
	resupply every three to five days during the non-flying time.
	About every 14 days we would have a stand-down day where we were
	supposed to take it easy but the aircraft maintanence people
	(me) worked even harder because all of the planes were available.
	This would go on for 30 to 60 days ( a line period ) after which
	we would go to SUBIC BAY for 4-5 days of liberty and then go back
	to the line. A cruise lasted 9-12 months.

	The AOEs were huge. THe main deck was at about the same level
	as the hanger deck, which made unrep a little easier. They were
	almost as long as the carrier. There were at least two fuel lines
	and four cargo lines between ships.  The AOE also had a helicopter
	pad aft and a hanger for two CH-46s (I'm not sure about the type,
	it had two rotors fore & aft). The helicopters would take the light
	stuff to the flight deck.

	Mostly we took on bombs. After 2+ hours there would be bombs and
	bomb finn pallets everywhere; in the magazines (full), the mess decks,
	the hanger deck, and the starboard side of the island on the
	roof. After 3-5 days of flying it would be all gone & we'd do
	it again.

	Dale Borgeson
	Rosemount Inc.
	Minneapolis



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#753 Re: How long can your fleet endure?

Richard Johnson writes:
> 	[About resupply during Carrier operations]

About resupply in Traveller Naval Operations:

This would be a major problem in extended naval operations ranging over
a Sector or more. It is alleviated somewhat by the use of pure-energy
weapons whose only reqirements are power from the powerplant (and in some
cases: hydrogen from the tanks). Hydrogen is free for taking at your
friendly neighbourhood gasgiant (in most cases).
The trouble is the material munitions (missiles, sandcannisters etc).
Those weapons is popular because they give more "Bang for the MegaWatts"
Their disadvantage is their limited ammo and the need to bring extra ammo
along. Supposedly on large, armored cargoships.
Other material things a fleet will need is spareparts, spare crew and
recharges for the life-support systems. Some of this can be carried on
the warships but the main part of the supplys will be stored on supplyships.
The supplyships will either follow the fleet or travel between it and a source
of supply (Naval Depot or Industrial world with TL 14+ can supply everything
a fleet need (except perhaps life-support recharges) but these can be found
on any Agricultural world regardless of TL).
If the supplyships are to follow the fleet there have to be a large number
of them to guarantee that the supplys will last until the next supplyrun
to a planet. This large number of ships is a tempting target and must be
protected.
If the method of continous supplys are adopted the major problem involves
finding the fleet. Information flows with the same speed as the fleet moves
(1 jump per week) so when the supplyships arrive they might find that the
fleet has been chased away and that the enemy now holds that system.
One approach to this problem is using predesignated meetingpoints that the
fleet will jump to to be supplyed. These points might not even be in systems,
they might just be coordinates in deep space.

These problems with supply will lead to a preferrence for pure energy weapons
(Lasers, PA's, Fusionguns, Plasmaguns, Mesonguns, Disintegrators, Repulsors
and all kinds of screens) in forces that are not geared towards pure defence-
missions. Likewise a planetary invasion force will equipp themselves with
as big proportion of laser and enery weapons and possible. The troops will
have lasers, FGMPs and PGMPs, and the vehicles will only use munitionusing
weapons in specific circumstances. (VRF GaussGuns).
The planetary defenders, on the other hand, may defend with every kind of
weapon imaginable: missiles, artillery, massdrivers, rocketlaunchers etc
*in addition* to the normal spectrum of weapons.

Planetary invasions are even more supplyconsuming than "pure" space battles.
There is a need for troops, landingcrafts, combat vehicles, recon drones,
decoys, weapons for the troops, ammo for all kinds of weapons, bombs for
defence supression, food for the troops, etc etc.
All this will require continous supplymission out of the system. Harrased
by hiding SDB's and Commerse Raiders and disturbed by the largescale fighting
that might still go on in the subsector.

All this condenses to: It's easier to defend than to attack.
The defender might have large stashes of supplys hidden beforehand in systems
and deep space while the attacker must bring everything with him. In any case
the defender will have shorter supplyruns than the attacker.
In the case of planetary sieges and invasions this advantage for the defender
is even more pronounced and will in some cases outweigh the tactical advantage
of "holding the high ground" that the attacker has.

> 	The AOEs were huge. THe main deck was at about the same level
> 	as the hanger deck, which made unrep a little easier. They were
> 	almost as long as the carrier. There were at least two fuel lines
> 	and four cargo lines between ships.  The AOE also had a helicopter
> 	pad aft and a hanger for two CH-46s (I'm not sure about the type,
> 	it had two rotors fore & aft). The helicopters would take the light
> 	stuff to the flight deck.

Supplyships will probably be very large. 50 000 tons and larger. If the fleet
is forced to bring it's own fuel it would also contain several 1 000 000 tons
fleet tankers. Other supplyships that can be found in a fleet are big refinerys
that produces pure fuel for those ships that lack their own plants, And also
a mobile repaircenter of 500 000 tons that provides extra repair facilies.

> 	Mostly we took on bombs. After 2+ hours there would be bombs and
> 	bomb finn pallets everywhere; in the magazines (full), the mess decks,
> 	the hanger deck, and the starboard side of the island on the
> 	roof.

I would imagine that a IMC Landingship or a IN Destroyer also would
look something like that at the start of a long mission. All available
space occupied by supplys. Ammo, spareparts and Liquid Oxygen bottles stacked
in all passageways, recreation rooms, and even in the cabins.

"Sarge, do I really have to have 200 kg of explosives stored under my bed?" :-)

- -bertil-
- --
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: [email removed]
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[address removed]                             (Famous last words)
"And so for more than a decade Tiamat had been observing Lucifer with
every possible kind of instrumentation" A.C.Clarke "2061: Odyssey Three"

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#754 Re: How long can your fleet endure?

Bertil K K Jonell writes:

>Supplyships will probably be very large. 50 000 tons and larger. If the fleet
>is forced to bring it's own fuel it would also contain several 1 000 000 tons
>fleet tankers. Other supplyships that can be found in a fleet are big refinerys
>that produces pure fuel for those ships that lack their own plants, And also
>a mobile repaircenter of 500 000 tons that provides extra repair facilies.

I seem to remember that in Fifth Frontier War, although I haven't played it in
years, that there was a provision for tankers. This was a necessity if you jump
into a system that does not have a Gas Giant to refuel at. Otherwise you were
stuck in system until you conquered it, then you could refuel from the planet.

Greg

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#756 Re: How long can your fleet endure?

One solution to the problem of re-supplying warships is the use of supply
ships which hide at some secret location.  In WW2, the German commerce
raiders did this.  Their supply ships were fast, armed tankers.  They
would be at a pre-arranged point, at a pre-arranged time.  One such point,
code-named "Andalusia", was used regularly.  The supply ships brought
ammo, foodstuffs and spare parts, and sometimes took away prisoners of war.

In a Traveller campaign, suitable places could include systems whose main
world is too low tech to be able to scan the whole system for intruders;
systems with no population; or empty hexes.  The last of these would, of
course, require two additional jumps to use, and would only really be of
use for transferring large quantities of ammo or spare parts.  Refuelling
really is only practical with tankers which accompany the fleet (as in the
board game "Fifth Frontier War"), from captured territory, or from gas
giants.  The boardgame says the system must contain no hostile, active
ships if you are to use the gas giant.  High Guard says that refuelling
while enemy ships are around is risky, which is why some ships stay outside
the gas giant to cover those ships refuelling - they are the High Guard.

Another source is raided enemy shipping.  One German warship, the "pocket
battleship" Admiral Scheer, captured a British refridgerator ship named
Duquesa.  The Scheer never went short of fresh food, especially eggs, for
the rest of the voyage!

Has anyone else considered making an adventure campaign out of the exploits
of a commerce raider?  I did so once, using FASA's Chameleon class raider.
The players came unstuck - they kept using the ship's missiles when they
could have just used its secondary weapons, lasers and particle accelerators.
When they ran into serious trouble, they were just about out of missiles!

Merry Christmas, everyone!

 "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  [email removed]
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   [email removed]

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#757 Re: How long can your fleet endure?

Actually, as some of us pointed out during the discussion of "odball" objects
(black holes, brown dwarfs, etc) there may be a lot of stuff out in those
"empty" hexes. If a survey team can locate a comet-like object, that will
refuel a *lot* of ships. Figure the tonnage of a ball of ice (water, methane,
and ammonia) a few klicks across.

The location of such covert refueling stations would be closely guarded as
while there are a lot of such iceballs out there, they are *not* easy to
find. But what is it worth to you to have a refueling depot in interstellar
space? Better yet, what if it's a few light hours outside an enemy system?

In peacetime only covert operations would use these resources. In wartime
a skipper might open his sealed orders to find that he is to jump to some
location in empty space. After arriving, he'd be met by a pilot who'd take
the ship in. (If the crew is kept away from the nav readouts, only the pilot
knows how they got from the jump point to the fuel depot... paranoia pays!)


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