Battle of the Fleets

A thread of 2 messages, 30 May 1994 to 30 May 1994, in the order they were sent.

#7814 Battle of the Fleets

In the "discussion" ("flames" is starting to be a better word) of fleet
sizes, bear in mind that you are talking about two different sets of
numbers.  TCS has budgets based on population and governments, and this
figure covers _everything_.  The fleet sizes in Rebellion Sourcebook and
elsewhere are _not_ everything.

The figures in Rebellion Sourcebook only include cruisers, carriers,
battleships and some escorts; they omit entire squadrons like AssaultRons
(which I think explains a good point that someone made about how all the
invasion forces could be carried by the number given for ships available
to Dulinor).  I would imagine that the figure would certainly only be
operational ships, and so would exclude ships in mothballs or "ordinary".

The figures in Rebellion Sourcebook are internally inconsistent anyway.
Even if you interpret the 1000 ships figure as being each for numbered
and numbered reserve fleets, it still seems small; 16 minimum size
numbered fleets of 50 ships is 800 ships, which leaves little leeway.  If
you don't believe that the 1000 ships is each for numbered and numbered
reserve fleets, it is even further out.

To further explain the apparent inconsistency, there is the maintenance
overhead aspect of the TCS rules (10% for operational ships and 1% for
ships in ordinary).  Both the economics of shipbuilding and published
sources surely show that there would be many ships in ordinary.  I have
not seen this taken into account in some of the discussions.
(Incidentally, does anyone know why these are so high? Operational
civilian ships only need 0.1%).

Anyway, if you take Glisten as an example, it has an annual military
budget of about TCr4.  Even if it had the biggest yards in the galaxy, it
could still only build TCr40 worth of operational ships, as maintenance
of these would soak up the entire military budget.  In Fighting Ships of
the Shattered Imperium (which I know is not the best source of designs in
the world, but it is official), TCr40 doesn't buy all that many _big_
ships; Battleships and Dreadnoughts are commonly TCr1 or more.

Even when you add in the taxation income from the rest of the subsector,
the figures do not grow by orders of magnitude (particularly if you
reduce the value of the money by starport/TL), since Glisten dominates
virtually every other world in the subsector.

Anyway, it looks to me that GDW have always been deliberately vague about
definitions of numbers, to avoid apparent contradictions like this.  So
you are all free to some extent to interpret the numbers how you like.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Grant Sinclair               The difference between a politician and a
[email removed]              snail is the snail leaves its slime behind
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

#7821 re: Battle of the Fleets

Grant Sinclair [email removed] wrote:

> To further explain the apparent inconsistency, there is the maintenance
> overhead aspect of the TCS rules (10% for operational ships and 1% for
> ships in ordinary). Both the economics of shipbuilding and published
> sources surely show that there would be many ships in ordinary.  I have
> not seen this taken into account in some of the discussions.
> (Incidentally, does anyone know why these are so high? Operational
> civilian ships only need 0.1%).

   The 0.1% for civilian ships is just for annual maintenance.  The TCS 10%
is supposed to cover everything - personnel, bases, supplies etc.  Today,
the initial cost of the hardware is one of the smaller parts of of the
budget.


> Anyway, if you take Glisten as an example, it has an annual military
> budget of about TCr4.  Even if it had the biggest yards in the galaxy, it
> could still only build TCr40 worth of operational ships, as maintenance
> of these would soak up the entire military budget.  In Fighting Ships of
> the Shattered Imperium (which I know is not the best source of designs in
> the world, but it is official), TCr40 doesn't buy all that many _big_
> ships; Battleships and Dreadnoughts are commonly TCr1 or more.

   Ships cost about 1 MCr per ton.  If you spend half the budget on 200 000
ton ships, you get about 100 with that TCr40.

   Ignore FSotSI - many of them break the rules regarding maximum armour,
which inflates the ship cost dramatically.  For example, the BH-15 (armour
120G) masses over 30 tonnes per kL.  Not too shabby considering superdense
is only 15 t/kL.  Almost all its TCr17 is based on that impossible hull.


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