GEnie files

 In message: [email removed] Greg Givler writes:
 >
 >If there are no objections I will start downloading some of the files this
 >weekend and will start posting them next week.

     *I* certainly won't object.  Thanks, Greg.

 >Also, there is some Copywritten(?) material on there, mostly the UPW listings
 >of all the Sectors of the Imperium, so you think that it is all right to
 >distribute this.

     If they had wanted to keep their copyright intact, they shouldn't
have posted the information via an electronic medium.  By doing that,
they effectively place it in the public domain.  The principle is that
there's no possible way to control distribution, so copyright can't be
maintained.  For example, by posting something to USENET, you lose all
legal recourse.

     Bottom line?  There's nothing wrong with posting the files.  Besides,
GDW and Digest Group don't really have anything to worry about from us,
do they?  We're on *their* side, right?  :-)

 >distribute this. I mean technically whoever is running this RoundTable on
 >GEnie, wont get any money from my downloading the info, as GEnie let's me
 >do this Free.

     Really?  Is it that GEnie is suppying the account for free, or is C=
picking up the tab?  If the latter, then GEnie shouldn't care.


- --
     Brent

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Uh, James?

Bad news... GEnie, like CIS is *controlled acces*. You have to sign up.
And they have to verify you. This means that the usenet analogy breaks
down. You do *not* lose your copyright by posting to CIS or GEnie, and
they can get downright nasty about it.

Several years ago CIS was cracking down on people who were downloading
all the "good" files from one of a forums data libraries and putting
them on their BBS's. Since I had a copyright notice on a program of
mine that was copied CIS's lawyers asked me if I'd like them to sue
the BBS operator *FOR ME*! They were going after him on their own anyway.

Anybody planning on downloading thoise files and posting them to the
list had better read the fine print of their service agreement. I lay
odds that itr *specifically* states that what we want to do is not
permiited. If it doesn't say so there, the online system rules *will*
say so. And you are obligated to honor the agreement and follow the
rules by the LEGAL CONTRACT you have entered into with them.

James, unless we get permission from GEnie or from the authors/posters
of those files, I'd advise you to not post them until you have a talk
with Tek's legal department. It is concievable that they could sue
Tek since it supports the list...

Sorry to be a wet blanket. I'd *love* to have those files. But not if it
means that we lose the list, or somebody gets nailed to the wall by Genie.

All opinions and material above is the responsibility of the originator.
Submissions: [email removed], or [email removed]
Administrator: [email removed] (James Perkins)
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by Tektronix, Inc.

 In message: [email removed] you write:
 >
 >Uh, James?
 >
 >Bad news... GEnie, like CIS is *controlled acces*. You have to sign up.
 >And they have to verify you. This means that the usenet analogy breaks
 >down. You do *not* lose your copyright by posting to CIS or GEnie, and
 >they can get downright nasty about it.

     Um...  'Fraid you do, under relatively new law (this comes from a
lawyer [not me]).  Among other things, compilation copyrights fall down
flat when it comes to electronic media.  I'm given to understand that
compilation copyright is one of the big concepts that the information
services use.

 >Anybody planning on downloading thoise files and posting them to the
 >list had better read the fine print of their service agreement. I lay
 >odds that itr *specifically* states that what we want to do is not
 >permiited. If it doesn't say so there, the online system rules *will*
 >say so. And you are obligated to honor the agreement and follow the
 >rules by the LEGAL CONTRACT you have entered into with them.

     However, the new copyright laws don't really apply to contractual
obligations between service provider and client.  I have to admit that
I didn't even think of that.  Unfortunately, I've never seen the text
of any of the contracts that the information services use (I *do* speak
legalese--you can't beat a system you don't understand).  Anybody know
what these contracts say?

     Yeah, we should be careful...wouldn't want to get the Little Blue
Oscilloscope Company in trouble...


- --
     Brent

INTERNET:  [email removed]           /  [email removed]
USENET:  [email removed]
FIDONET:  [email removed]                           (from Internet)  or
          Brent Woods@1:201/40.303  (from FidoNet)
[address removed]
PHONE:  [phone removed] (voice)


All opinions and material above is the responsibility of the originator.
Submissions: [email removed], or [email removed]
Administrator: [email removed] (James Perkins)
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by Tektronix, Inc.

> >Bad news... GEnie, like CIS is *controlled acces*. You have to sign up.
>
> >Anybody planning on downloading thoise files and posting them to the
> >list had better read the fine print of their service agreement. I lay
> >odds that itr *specifically* states that what we want to do is not
> >permiited.
>
>     However, the new copyright laws don't really apply to contractual
>obligations between service provider and client.  I have to admit that
>I didn't even think of that.  Unfortunately, I've never seen the text
>of any of the contracts that the information services use (I *do* speak
>legalese--you can't beat a system you don't understand).  Anybody know
>what these contracts say?

I will upload the contract and mail it to anyone who wants to see it.  It
doesn't look good.  I don't do legalese, but it was pretty clear, downloads are
not copyiable, so it looks like a mute point now.  I may send E.Mail to Mark
Miller (our dear author of Traveller) and see what he has to say.  I will also
find a DGP person to ask them also.

Most all of the Sector Data has Copyright(c)s attached to them.  A lot of the
other stuff does not.  Now the argument here is that the Traveller Group is a
Support center for Traveller products.  Much like Borland International is on
CIS as a service to it's customers, Traveller is on GEnie.  Borland uploads bud
fixes and such and makes them available to their customers free.  Microsoft
does the same.  Example, you can download printer drivers for MS-Word or you
can get a diskette from Redmon WA for $BUCKS.  In the MS case, you can't
redistribute it.

Now if GDW & DGP chose GEnie for this purpose, then they may be there to give
support to Traveller people world wide.  Their information may be for any owner
of Traveller and the only people who would get upset would be GE for having 50
people get (how many people are on the list anyway?) the files for the cost of
one download.

Rob
[email removed] or [email removed]

All opinions and material above is the responsibility of the originator.
Submissions: [email removed], or [email removed]
Administrator: [email removed] (James Perkins)
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by Tektronix, Inc.

>     If they had wanted to keep their copyright intact, they shouldn't
>have posted the information via an electronic medium.  By doing that,
>they effectively place it in the public domain.  The principle is that
>there's no possible way to control distribution, so copyright can't be
>maintained.  For example, by posting something to USENET, you lose all
>legal recourse.
>
>     Bottom line?  There's nothing wrong with posting the files.  Besides,
>GDW and Digest Group don't really have anything to worry about from us,
>do they?  We're on *their* side, right?  :-)

Well I tried downloading some stuff on FFW over the weekend and it was
listed as being a binary file. Now I can't seem to figure out how to
"un-binary" it. I will try some more stuff this week.

>>distribute this. I mean technically whoever is running this RoundTable on
>>GEnie, wont get any money from my downloading the info, as GEnie let's me
>>do this Free.

>     Really?  Is it that GEnie is suppying the account for free, or is C=
>picking up the tab?  If the latter, then GEnie shouldn't care.

GEnie, picks up the tab. It's nice to know people in high places. :-)

>--
>     Brent

Greg

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Greg Givler                        | Q-Link: GregGivler
Analyst - Systems Evaluation Group | CompuServe: Greg Givler 76702,647
Commodore Product Assurance        | GEnie: [email removed]ivler
[phone removed]                    | The NET: [email removed]
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All opinions and material above is the responsibility of the originator.
Submissions: [email removed], or [email removed]
Administrator: [email removed] (James Perkins)
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by Tektronix, Inc.