Sword World technology
In reply to #7499 Sword Worlds Technology by David Johnson
David Johnson writes: >J Roberson [email removed] writes: >>I don't know much about the Sword Worlds, but to me they always seemed >>very faction-based, more akin to the Peloponnesian city-states than, >>say the Roman Empire. > >This is a fair assessment, IMHO, but this very view seems at conflict with >variable TLs. Again, if Sacnoth truly is at TL 12 while the other worlds >are at TL 9-11 then it ought to quickly come to dominate the entire >Confederation. Dominate how? And how quick is quickly? >Remember, technology is at the heart of the `feudal >technocracy' of the Sword Worlds Confederation. How would this affect the inter-planet dealings? Individual Sword Worlds may be feudal technocracies, but the Confederation itself is a - well, a confederation ;-) >This idea of a fundamental advance does need to be rectified with Hans's >point that in the Imperium campaign the ease of access to higher TLs points >to an economic or sociological basis for any TL rating rather than a basis >upon technological endeavor. If I want to build a Jump-3 starship on Gram >all I need to do is jump over to Sacnoth, buy some blueprints (or hire a >shipwright), and jump back to Gram. Since this isn't happening (otherwise >Gram would be TL C with a class A starport) then either I can't afford to >buy the blueprints (or hire the shipwright) *or* there is some social >reason why I can't do this. You can take it a step further to say that >Gram doesn't have the TL 12 factories needed to manufacture components for >such a ship but can't I just jump down to Sacnoth and get plans for them >too? Ah, but thats the whole point. You don't have the factories because you can buy your TL 12 stuff cheaper from Sacnoth than you can build them yourself. And you don't build that ship yourself becuase it's cheaper to buy it from Sacnoth, too. This also impose a natural restriction on Sacnoth's ability to dominate the Confederation: If they become too expensive the other worlds _will_ build TL 12 factories - which will propably trigger a recession on Sacnoth and close down a lot of industry - quite possibly enough to drop Sacnoth a TL in the process. That's what I mean by economic cycles. >Hans Rancke [email removed] writes: > >>David Johnson writes: >>>>From Wednesday night, Hans Rancke [email removed] writes: >>>>Perhaps the Sword Worlds goes through >>>>a regular cycle of booms and recessions with acompanying TL increases and >>>>decreases? >>> >>>Well, maybe, but that still doesn't explain the *variance* in tech levels >>>from world to world within the Confederation - >> >>It does if one postulates that the individual Sword Worlds are on different >>cycles. When a world has a boom it produces TL 12 stuff and exports it; when >>it is in a depression it makes do with TL 10 or 11 stuff for the most part >>and imports what it has to. > >Such variation in economic cycles from world to world would seem to suggest >that there is little integration between the economies of the Sword Worlds. On the contrary, there is a lot of intergration. That's why their economies can affect each other that way. What they don't have is much economic _control_. Each world will do what seems best for itself. >This seems unlikely to me. Even if there is little political cooperation >there ought to be much economic cooperation or the Sword Worlds would have >fallen to the Imperium - or the Darrians - long ago. How do you know that? By that logic the independent worlds along the edge of the Imperium should have fallen to the Imperium long ago too. They are certainly even weaker than the Confederation. Lots of independant worlds have fallen to the Imperium in the old days. But the Imperium had to stop somewhere. It happened to be before they swallowed the Sword Worlds (Of course, the fact that the present Sword world government (centered on Gram) is rumoured to be heavily backed by Zhodani money may explain a lot). The Imperium did occupy 12 of the Sword Worlds for a time after the Third Frontier War, as a matter of fact. They just decided to go home again. >>Their culture can perfectly well be homogenous in spite of TL variances of >>a couple of levels. > >Well, maybe, but I find this unlikely for a `feudal technocracy'. Technology >is a fundamental aspect of Sword Worlds culture. (Do me a favour and describe how a feudal technocracy functions. Of all the government types that's the one I've never been quite clear about. I have a vague idea, but I can't quite see how it would work in practice). Anyway, as I said above, the Confederation is not one. >>>Without it, one wonders why >>>Sacnoth, at tech level 12, hasn't come to dominate the Sword Worlds long >>>ago. >> >>Two possible reasons: 1) Sacnoth has its own ups and downs and just happened >>to have an up the last time the Scouts or TAS updated their world catalogue. > >Well, if this was the case, why wasn't Sacnoth the capital at that point? Because it was only one of 20+ worlds and the rest wanted it differently? >Leadership clearly fluctuates among the Sword Worlds so ought not these >fluctuations be tied to any fluctuations in technology? Why should it? It is tied to political power. One source of political power is technology, but it's not the only one. Besides, the leadership dosen't fluctuate all that much. The Sword Worlds had been led by Gram for centuries in 1120. >Again, keep in mind the `feudal technocracy'. Elucidate please. I'm not trying to be snide, I actually can't see why that should affect the inter-planet relationships. >>2) If, as I assume, a world can maintain equipment that is not too much in >>advance of its TL, then the other worlds can maintain their own TL 12 ships >>even though their TL is only 10 or 11 (though they cannot build new ones). >>Thus there is a balance of power. > >Well, again maybe, but only if that balance of power doen't destroy any >of those precious ships. If I were Sacnoth I wouldn't sell any other >worlds ships, fight them to a destructive stalemate, build some new TL12 >weapons of my own, and set myself up as a TED, in a sense. If the Sword >Worlds are as fractious as it seems, even if Sacnoth doesn't do this it >seems the next world to hit the `peak' of it's cycle would. Oh, dear! You really have a gamer's mentality, don't you? (And, yes, here I am being snide ;-) The Sword Worlds have had their civil wars, true, but they don't have them twice a decade. I think they've had four or five in 15 centuries. They're not the local Monday Evening Gaming Club trying to do each other down, reasoning that having 50 'victory points' and win is better than having 500 points and lose. Wars cost. Maybe the Sacnoth leaders think a destructive stalemate would destroy too much. And, as I've mentioned above, if Sacnoth dosen't sell those ships then the other worlds _will_ build the factories to make the parts and build their own. If that's the way it works, then the only reason why the other worlds are not TL 12 is precisely that Sacnoth IS selling them ships and spare parts. > This entire `technological cycles' idea seems to me to be more and more > difficult to rationalize. Did I help? >> "A subsector official pompously states that the >> subsector armed forces have four Kinunir class >> ships in service, each with enough troop strength >> to put down any military operations that threathen >> the peace of the Imperium." >> >> ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir > >I've been meaning to say it for a long time. I *love* this quote. It so >wonderfully demonstrates the `provinciality' of all of us who `grew up' in the >Marches - both gamers and GDW. Thanks, Hans. Thank you. Ahh, yes. I too remember a time when a Kinunir was an awesome vesel of destruction, able to pacify whole worlds at a single volley of its 15 (Count them: 15!) jump capsules <<nostalgic sniff>>. They just don't make Marines like that nowadays, do they? Hans Rancke University of Copenhagen [email removed] - ------------ "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent events based on the individual situation." _76 Patrons_, p. 8