Just add water

A thread of 6 messages, 16 April 1990 to 22 April 1990, in the order they were sent.

#1223 Just add water

	In my search for ways to increase the cargo tonnage of merchant ships,
I discovered an interesting technique: Store most of the fusion plant
fuel in the form of water, and only refine it to hydrogen as needed.
Water is a more space efficient way to carry hydrogen than LH2.  Since 1
kl of LH2 masses ~0.07 tons, and the mass of the hydrogen in 1 kl water
= 1/9*1 = ~0.11 tons, this results in a space savings of about 1/3.
Most ships have fuel purification plants, and since they can refine
water obtained from ocean refuelling they can certainly refine water
already in the tanks.
	This tactic can be very helpful for power plant fuel, but jump fuel is
needed too fast (all burned in about 10 minutes) for the purification
plant to keep up.  Since the minimum size TL 15 plant purifies 200 kl in
6 hours, it should be able to handle almost any powerplant needs.  The
leftover oxygen can be dumped, used, or saved in excess tankage to
convert back to water with fuel skimmed from a gas giant.  Once a ship
has entered Jumpspace, the fuel for the jump has all been used, so the
water can be refined to LH2 and LOX.  I am assuming that the fuel
tankage for most ships is modular, so that you can have different fluids
in different tank sections (otherwise skimming and purifying would be
difficult).  In the designs I have done, I put in a small (5-10 kl) LH2
"buffer" for the powerplant fuel, and stored the rest as water.
	Hindsight makes this kind of obvious, and I think the only reason it
hasn't (to my knowledge) been noticed before is because the way an MT
manuver drive works is counterintuitive (ie only volume is important,
not mass).  In any drive that depends on mass, this won't work well
since 8/9 of the mass of water is oxygen, which is useless to the
powerplant.
	Any warship or explorer using this technique should probably have more
than one fuel purification plant in case one gets damaged or destroyed.
Alternatively, they could just use a buffer large enough to get the ship
back to port for repairs.
	Another case where water can come in handy is for making multiple jumps
without refuelling.  Only the fuel for the one jump at a time needs to
be refined, saving 1/3 the space on the fuel for all subsequent jumps.
Also if you are carrying fuel in collapsible tanks, it would seem to me
that water would be *much* safer and easier to deal with than LH2.
	What to do if you are a GM and don't like this: This is kind of tough,
since the only things needed for this to work are 1) - Purification
plants can handle water, and 2) - Manuver drives don't care about mass.
The only real way to get rid of it is to axe 2), which means throwing
out all the existing official ship designs, as well as making certain
types of ships impossible to build (ie anything with heavy armor).
	I'm interested in any comments or suggestions you might have.


					W. Dow Rieder

 	When the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems
start to look like nails...

#1225 Re: Just add water

I didn't believe it until I checked it out myself.  Yup, it works.
But why stop at water (OH2)?  Let your imagination run wild.

Ammonia (NH3)
  b.p. -28 deg. F (sorry about the English units, that's what
                   the book has).
  Density, liq:  42.6 lb/ft^3  =  .682 tons/m^3
  %wt of Hydrogen:  17.65%     (3/(14+1+1+1))
  Density of Hydrogen:  .120 tons/m^3

  About 1.70 times the hydrogen in the same space.
  (Density of H (LH2) is about .0708 tons/m^3)
  (Water worked out to about 1.57 times the hydrogen)


Methane (CH4)
  b.p.  -164 deg. C  (yup, these are in SI)
  Density, liq:  .5547 (not sure about this.  The table
                        also says .466 next to the gas
                        phase, but that is awfully dense
                        for a gas).
  %wt of Hydrogen:  25%     (4/(12+1+1+1+1))
  Density of Hydrogen:  .1387 tons/m^3

  About 1.96 times the hydrogen in the same space!
  Wow, almost doubled capacity!

Hmm, just found ammonia on another chart that says its
liquid density is .7710 tons/m^3 which would give a H
density of .1358 tons/m^3 or 1.92 times capacity.

A quick check into the thermodynamic properties of
these three (water, ammonia , methane) says:

143  kJ/mole to split H2O into H2 and O2
15.4 kJ/mole to splie NH3 into N2 and H2
18.7 kJ/mole to split CH4 into H2 and C(graphite)

Looks like it should be easier to extract hydrogen from
methane and ammonia than water.  Anyone know for sure?

I suspect methane is about the best you can do since it uses
four bonds with hydrogen--the normal maximum.  Of course, there
might be some superdense liquid or really messed up bond structure
out there that I don't know about.
- --
John H. Kim
[email removed]
[email removed]

#1228 Re: Just add water

John H. Kim writes:

>Ammonia (NH3)
>  %wt of Hydrogen:  17.65%     (3/(14+1+1+1))
>  About 1.70 times the hydrogen in the same space.
>  (Water worked out to about 1.57 times the hydrogen)
>
>
>Methane (CH4)
>  %wt of Hydrogen:  25%     (4/(12+1+1+1+1))
>  About 1.96 times the hydrogen in the same space!
>  Wow, almost doubled capacity!

This is an interesting breakthrough in starship design.
Sell your stock in refined fuel companies!
The facilities should be designed to allow sufficent fuel capacity if
water was being used, as the other gasses may not always be avaiable.
Thus is methane is designated as providing a 30 day supply, then Ammonia
would give you 26 days, and water 24 days, this should be plenty.

This brings up three points:

First: Are there any astophysicsts out there who can describe the
strucutre of a gas giant. i.e. what gasses are found at the top of the
atmosphere, how far down do you have to go to get ammonia, or methane?

Second: If a load of mixed gasses come in to the tank, can the
refinery eliminate the unwanted material, and leave ammonia water or
methane. They are designed to extract hydrogen, and dump everything else.
Would two purifiers be necessary? One to sort the incoming wilderness
fuel, and the second to provide hydrogen for the holding tank.

Third: Another method of saving fuel space is logically considering
the energy usage of a ship. The fuel consumption is based on full output
24hrs a day for 30 days. Warships in particular devote a lot of energy to
weapons screens or agility.
We know that the fusion engines can vary their fuel consumption, as the
idling rules imply. anyways if you don't agree with this, then you can
always designate two fusion engines, one for the consant energy, and the
other for the on-demand energy.
Thus only allocating fuel for 12-48 hours of combat, a reasonable
assumption I believe, even more fuel savings can be made.

			-Dan

Dan Corrin, System Manager, Mechanical Engineering, UWO, London, Ontario
TML FTP site coordinator:  [email removed]    ...!watmath!julian!engrg!dan

#1231 Skimming Fuel (was: Just add water)

>Dan Corrin [email removed] writes:
>
>First: Are there any astophysicsts out there who can describe the
>strucutre of a gas giant. i.e. what gasses are found at the top of the
>atmosphere, how far down do you have to go to get ammonia, or methane?

That's what the Galileo mission is for.  It will drop a probe into
the Jovian atmosphere and we will (hopefully) get our first "cross
section" of a gas giant's upper atmosphere.

But I don't think you guys want to wait until 1996 (or whenever it's
supposed to get to Jupiter) so here's what I dug up in back-issues
of magazines.  Remember, it's all theoretical right now.

Jupiter:     ammonia crystals (white)              Top
             ammonium hydrosulfide crystals (brown)
             water ice crystals ?
             liquid Helium/Hydrogen

Neptune:     Diacetylene clouds                   Top
             Acetylene clouds (CHCH)              20 km down
             Ethane clouds (CH3CH3)               50 km down (from top)
             Methane ice cloud (CH4)              150-200 km down
             Hydrogen Sulfide cloud (H2S)         20 more km down

I suspect the really high atmosphere stuff is determined from the
radio-occultation of Voyager II behind Neptune, so it is probably
valid.  The rest (100 km+) is probably a good guess from spectro-
scopic analysis of sunlight reflected from the atmosphere.

My magazines don't go back to the Voyager-Jupiter/Saturn encounters
(heck, I was only 12 back then) so if you really want to get into
this stuff, dig up some good science mags (esp. Sky & Telescope,
Astronomy) of the Voyager encounters.
Jupiter:'79-'80  Saturn:'81-'82  Uranus:'86-'87  Neptune:'89

I think I'll ask the guys on sci.astro

>Second: If a load of mixed gasses come in to the tank, can the
>refinery eliminate the unwanted material, and leave ammonia water or
>methane. They are designed to extract hydrogen, and dump everything else.
>Would two purifiers be necessary? One to sort the incoming wilderness
>fuel, and the second to provide hydrogen for the holding tank.

Separation of all this gobbledygook shouldn't be a problem.  Most
of the stuff seems to be in solid or liquid phase so all you do is
raise the temperature and each material boils off at its respective
boiling point.  (It isn't really this simple but it'll do for most
game purposes.)

What I don't know is how you go about separating ammonia into
nitrogen and hydrogen gas (or methane into graphite and H gas).
Hydrolysis works with water, but I don't know about the other two.
(I am not a chemist.  I've been looking up these numbers in a CRC.
I hate chemistry.  No, I'm not an astrophysicist either.  Just an
engineer-in-training who had to learn this separation stuff.)

Hey, just had a thought to add realism to the game.  In real life,
separation/refining takes lots of time (like using a still to make
alcohol) unless you use really big machinery.  This is a physical
constraint, so higher tech levels will only help a little.  (Maybe
I'll run that program my school has that simulates chemical processing
and separating systems.)

So... why not add a time penalty to refine this stuff after you get
it from a gas giant.  That way, if you regularly skim fuel, not only
are you risking a misjump, but you're going to have to wait a few
hours before you can jump away from that patrol cruiser on your tail.

And since only 5%-25% of the stuff you skim is really hydrogen,
make 'em go back into that gas giant where they know three system
defense ships are lurking!  Then make 'em go back five more times
before their tanks have enough hydrogen to make a jump.

I think this would cut down on players skimming fuel.  I always
hated how players would say "What?  500Cr/ton for fuel?  No thanks,
I'll just hop over to a GG and skim it."
- --
John H. Kim
[email removed]
[email removed]      <--Yes, it's changed.  muddcs is gone.

#1247 Re: Just add water

	Methane and ammonia are more space efficient, but water has several
advantages: its cheap, very common, easy to handle and store (can be
stored at room
temp), and can be handled by standard purification plants. Methane would
still be best
in some cases tho (like trying to cross the Rift with multiple jumps w/o
refuelling)
	As for Bertil's (quite valid) question of why everyone isn't doing it, well
thats the other half of the problem...:-)  Here are some ideas:
	If most of your fuel is water and your purification plant gets knocked out,
your in big trouble - so thats a reason for Navy ships not to use it.
	The Vilani won't use it cause LH2 works fine, and its traditional...:-)
	Anyone in a big hurry, or whose purification plant takes a long time
to finish would want LH2, so they can jump/fight/whatever quicker.
	I think that a combination of these reasons could explain why most
of the "standard" designs use LH2.  However, even if the ship wasn't designed
for it, you can still use water; this could be a common "trick of the
trade" for
merchants trying to squeeze in more cargo. I think that GDW and/or Digest
Group might accept that.  (This is also a possible reason to provide life
support etc, for the fuel tankage; it might be modified to hold other stuff...)
This still lets you design your own ships to use water -- have fun.

"How's business?  Well, if you were a free trader in the Solomani Rim, and
the Vilani big three had just pulled out all their merchants from the whole
sector, how do you think you would be doing?" - Capt. Grant

					W. Dow Rieder

 	When the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems
start to look like nails...

#1248 Re: Just add water

On the advantages of water over ammonia (heck, I started
the ammonia bit, might as well defend it :-), the point
I see is that although water is safer than ammonia, they
are both waaaaaay safer than LH2 at 13 K (or whatever).
I also don't recall which is more abundant, methane,
ammonia, or water.

Now to extoll the virtues of water:  Why should you be
worried about being unable to convert water to H2?  All
you need is some electricity and two wires.  Once you
generate a small amount of H2, you can run it through
your fusion plant to get more electricity, and so on.
"Damn, only two hours of air and we're out of fuel.
Frank, bring that pitcher of water, and we're gonna
have to bust your flashlight."

Do you even need electricity?  I always thought burning
unrefined fuel was like sending H2O straight through the
fusion plant, where the heat would be enough to break the
hydrogen and oxygen apart{.  Drive failures would be caused
by extranneous oxygen "clogging up the valves".  Hmm, more
to think about...
- --
John H. Kim
[email removed]
[email removed]