Re: Firearm calibers

"Mark F. Cook" [email removed] writes:
>
> Speaking of 7.62 rounds: while the 7.62 NATO rifle round is never fired as
> a pistol round (with the possible exception of a custom weapon), the Russian
> Tokarev pistol (the standard sidearm for Soviet officers, from 1930 until
> the end of WWII, when it was discarded in favor of the 9mm Makarov) DOES
> chamber a 7.62mm pistol round.  This round was adopted in 1930 for the Model
> TT-33 auto pistol.  This cartridge is very similar to the 7.63mm Mauser (also
> known as the 30 Mauser).

According to my book ("The Armory", a catalogue of firearms which is designed
mainly for use with role-playing games) the Tokarev round and the Mauser
round are the same.  The Czechs produce a round of the same dimensions, but
with more propellant.  They use it in a number of pistols and SMG's.  These
can also use the Mauser round, but lose some of their performance.  It is
unwise to use the Czech round in a gun intended for the Mauser round!

> One response you got already, was from Alvin M. Chan at
> [email removed], who writes:
>
> >some other pistol calibres besides the 'popular' .22 .38 .357 (same as .38
> >just a longer case length for more powder) 9mm .44 .45ACP  are for instance :
> >
> >.40   .41  .50  .454  .457  .32  .375 .25ACP  .177 (4.5mm)  .451 magnum
> >.380 ACP,auto  .22 short, .22 long rifle (LR) , 7.65 parabellum, 10mm
>
>	I can't find ANY references to a .451 magnum.  Only the 451 Detonics
> comes close and it, again, is a proprietary round.

The rounds of that general calibre that "The Armory" has heard of are:

Pistol: .44 magnum, .44 Automag, .455 Webley, .45 ACP, .45 Colt
(The Automag is a custom round.  You make one by taking a 7.62mm NATO
round, cutting off the neck, and putting in a .44 magnum bullet.  It has
occasionally been commercially produced, as has the gun.  The .45 Colt is
the Wild West one, the .45 ACP is the Colt Automatic one.)

Rifle: .44-40, .45 Martini, .45-70, .458 Winchester Magnum, .460 Weatherby
Magnum, .50-140 Sharps
(The .44-40 was used by the Winchester 1873.  The company is still around,
and their .458 Magnum round is for use against big animals.  So is the .460
Weatherby Magnum, the next best thing to an anti-tank rifle, and the most
powerful cartridge available outside the Army.)

>						    I assume the 7.65 para
> refers to the 32 (7.65mm) auto pistol round.

It probably refers to yet another round the same size as the Mauser .30.
This one was lower power, and pre-dates the Mauser.  It was used in the
Borchardt, the predecessor of the Luger, and also in the earliest Lugers.

Obligatory Traveller content:
Take note of all these different cartridge types, and note that a 9mm ACR
bought on one world may not accept ammo bought on another world!  Now you
know why many people use lasers.

- --
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  [email removed]
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   [email removed]

 In message 1534, [email removed] (Adrian Hurt) writes:
 >
 >Obligatory Traveller content:
 >Take note of all these different cartridge types, and note that a 9mm
 >ACR bought on one world may not accept ammo bought on another world!
 >Now you know why many people use lasers.

     Now that you mention it, you're quite right.  My (former,
unfortunately) gaming group was mostly US Army officer cadets (and one
butterbar ;-) ).  I could often take up an entire night of gaming with
getting them re-equipped with ammo, since they usually had their ammo
custom-made, using one of their original rounds as a sample.  They
never even *tried* to find compatible ammunition on the open market.
Depending on the local law level (and other factors), this activity
could often result in interesting things happening.  One time, they
had to fight their way out of a large city--but that's another story...


- --
     Brent

INTERNET:  [email removed]
[address removed]
PHONE:  [phone removed] (voice)

In message 1534 Adrian Hurt [email removed] writes:

>"Mark F. Cook" [email removed] writes:
>>
>> Speaking of 7.62 rounds: while the 7.62 NATO rifle round is never fired as
>> a pistol round (with the possible exception of a custom weapon), the Russian
>> Tokarev pistol (the standard sidearm for Soviet officers, from 1930 until
>> the end of WWII, when it was discarded in favor of the 9mm Makarov) DOES
>> chamber a 7.62mm pistol round.  This round was adopted in 1930 for the Model
>> TT-33 auto pistol.  This cartridge is very similar to the 7.63mm Mauser (also
>> known as the 30 Mauser).
>
>According to my book ("The Armory", a catalogue of firearms which is designed
>mainly for use with role-playing games) the Tokarev round and the Mauser
>round are the same.

They're not, but the difference is tiny (although enough to keep them from
being used interchangably).  They both have a rimless, bottleneck case (0.02mm
shorter and 0.01mm larger dia. for the Tokarev).  The number of twists is
significantly less for the Mauser: 7.9 vs. 10 for the Tokarev.

Oops.  Now that I read my notes, 'Cartridges of the World' DOES say that some
brands of Mauser ammo can be fired by the Tokarev.  Generally speaking, the
30 Mauser round is a better pistol round: flatter trajectory and longer range.
I think this is kind of ironic, considering that the 30 Mauser round is 27
years older than the Tokarev round.

In message 1536 Arthur Green [email removed] writes:

>Exotic weapon-gunner interfaces: This is starting to sound like cyberpunk
>to me (not necessarily a bad thing - this isn't a flame - but old Traveller
>was a goodole nuts'n'bolts game with no fancy wetware). Anyway some thoughts
>about marketing these weapons occurs to me. How many soldiers/adventurers
>are going to have the appropriate interface? Is there one standard interface?

Definitely a problem (and thus, a good potential source for local adventures),
vis-a-vis: "So, you've got an old HP-IB neural interface?  Most the mercs
I get in these days have gone to the new SCSI interfaces."

>How do you sell a weapon with a neural sight to a grunt from a tech 8 planet
>who's never heard about these gizmos?

Right!  As a result, you get reactions like, "I don't care HOW good a shot
it makes me!  I'm NOT going to stick that wire in my head!!"

>who's never heard about these gizmos? How do you keep 'em working (heh, the
>old malfunction at a critical time trick - my players used to hate this).

Mine too, but I love it.  Picture this: cyborged-to-the-gills PC chases a
much weaker NPC into a ruined building.  PC hasn't had any routine mainenance
done on the weapons interface in MONTHS.  He rounds a corner, where the NPC
is patiently waiting with a bucket of water.  ZAP!!  Instant neural stir-fry!

Later,

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
        [address removed]

INTERNET: [email removed]
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