Re: weapons skill redefinitions

Gary Shreiber asks:

    Does getting a skill with a weapon also give
    you the capability to perform maintainence on it?

In my system the answer is yes, a weapons skill includes the
training to perform maintenance on that weapon, which is in
accordance with current military training. It's the PCs
problem if they forget to actually do the said maintenance...

Jonathan

In TML subject 1719, Gary Schreiber writes:

>   I have been reading the comments on redoing the weapons skills, and I
>   have a point to bring up.  Does getting a skill with a weapon also give
>   you the capability to perform maintainence on it?  If so, then you have
>   to keep the skills seperated.  If not, then there should be a
>   Gunsmith Cascade skill for the various types of weapons(archaic,
>   revolvers, semi-autos, SMG's, MG's, Gauss, Laser, Plasma, Fusion,
>   Neural, etc).  This is something that must be considered if GNU
>   Traveller gets the go ahead.

..and in subject 1725, Jonathan Clark writes back:

> Gary Shreiber asks:
>
>    Does getting a skill with a weapon also give
>    you the capability to perform maintainence on it?
>
> In my system the answer is yes, a weapons skill includes the
> training to perform maintenance on that weapon, which is in
> accordance with current military training. It's the PCs
> problem if they forget to actually do the said maintenance...

I agree with this ONLY TO A POINT.  In the USMC, I was trained to fully
field-strip my M-16, so I could clean it and clear serious jams.  However,
if a component were to break, the best I could accomplish is to break down
the weapon, hopefuly locate the broken part, and then say, "Yup.  It's
busted."  I couldn't fix it unless I had another broken '16 to scavenge
from.  This wasn't normally the case. :-)  Even then, replacing some of
the parts requires special tools not normally available on a battlefield.

Therefore, I'd say that a specific weapons skill includes being able to
fieldstrip and clean your weapon, AND THAT'S ALL.  If a component is
broken, you take the weapon to a 'gunsmith' or, if you're in the service,
you have the company quartermaster replace it.

For high TL weapons, this gives fieldstripping a whole new meaning.  If
you're the squad heavy weapons operator (i.e. you carry a PGMP-15 while
everybody else carries laser rifles) then routine field maintenance probably
consists of daily barrel swaps, cleaning the weapon exterior, and checking
the connections from the powerpack to the weapon for damage and wear.
There is nothing to 'break down and clean' otherwise.  For a laser, all
you may have to do is clean the exterior, polish the lens apurture, and
check that the power cable is undamaged.  And so on...

I agree with Gary's initial proposal that there should probably be a Gunsmith
(or, more generically, 'Weaponsmith') Cascade skill for the various types of
weapons.  The catagories he suggests are:

> (archaic, revolvers, semi-autos, SMG's, MG's, Gauss, Laser, Plasma,
> Fusion, Neural, etc).

I think we could lump (revolvers, semi-autos, SMG's, MG's) into a single
catagory of ('chemically-propelled slug-thrower'), and combine (Plasma,
Fusion) into 'Heavy Energy Weapons' (since they, too, work on the same
principle).

Later,

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
        [address removed]

INTERNET: [email removed]
UUCP:     {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

"Mark F. Cook" [email removed] writes:
>	   I'd say that a specific weapons skill includes being able to
> fieldstrip and clean your weapon, AND THAT'S ALL.  If a component is
> broken, you take the weapon to a 'gunsmith' or, if you're in the service,
> you have the company quartermaster replace it.

The way I'd handle this in game terms is, the weapons skill allows you
to strip and clean the weapon, and replace components with other parts
taken intact from another weapon or a spares store.  The nature of the
component would dictate the task difficulty level; e.g. replacing a
piece of the trigger mechanism is not as easy as replacing the barrel.

Making new parts from a piece of metal comes under Mechanical skill.
Again, the difficulty level depends on the component, but will probably
be quite high - we're talking about precision machinery here.

> For high TL weapons, this gives fieldstripping a whole new meaning.
> ...
> There is nothing to 'break down and clean' otherwise.  For a laser, all
> you may have to do is clean the exterior, polish the lens apurture, and
> check that the power cable is undamaged.  And so on...

I don't know.  The trigger mechanism is now a switch, which could fail
and need to be replaced.  The power system probably has fuses, and can
also probably be dismantled into a few replaceable parts.  I'd expect
the gun to be designed to be dismantled into a few standard parts, e.g.
beam generator, sight, stock, trigger switch assembly, power cable,
power generator, power regulator, fuses.  Going much beyond that would
require Mechanical and/or Electronic skills, and possibly Engineering.

- - --
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  [email removed]
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   [email removed]

In TML Subject 1761, Bertil Jonell ([email removed]> writes:

> > From: Adrian Hurt [email removed]
> > Subject: (1752) Weapon repairs
> >
> > "Mark F. Cook" [email removed] writes:
> > >        I'd say that a specific weapons skill includes being able to
> > > fieldstrip and clean your weapon, AND THAT'S ALL.  If a component is
> > > broken, you take the weapon to a 'gunsmith' or, if you're in the service,
> > > you have the company quartermaster replace it.
> >
> > Making new parts from a piece of metal comes under Mechanical skill.
> > Again, the difficulty level depends on the component, but will probably
> > be quite high - we're talking about precision machinery here.
>
>   But remember that even if a weapons is damage so that it won't work, that
> dosen't nessesarily mean that any part is broken.
>   Example: The magasine of an automatic weapon don't need to be bent much
> before this starts to interfer with the feed. If the top part of a magasine
> is damaged in a certain way, the weapon with refuse to fire at all. Similarly,
> springs might bent out of shape, cartridges might get stuck and so on.
>   These isn't 'Superficial' errors, because each one will make the weapon
> unusable, and 'superficial' damage won't interfear with the operation of
> something. Yet none of them require any new parts to fix, just some tools
> and a little time.

All very true.  But the last sentence really should end with "...just some
tools, a little time, and the NECCESSARY SKILLS."  In this I think the point
that Adrian makes is correct: without Mechanical-1 or better, you probably
shouldn't be allowed to do it unpenalized.  Trying to bent a caved-in clip
or a bent leaf-spring back into shape (the CORRECT shape) is a difficult
task, as anyone who has tried can tell you.  On the other hand, clearing
a jammed cartridge does not typically constitute "repairing damage" in the
MT sense, since it takes no special talent other than the ability to operate
the weapon.  you might want to treat a cartridge jam as "superficial damage",
a bent clip as "minor damage", a broken trigger or firing-pin as "major
damage", and a bent barrel/crushed receiver as "destroyed".

>   Lastly I'm going to challenge one of basic pre-conceptions of Traveller and
> MegaTraveller: The recoilless gauss-rifle.
>   The gaussrifle fires a small 4mm calibre bullet. This bullet travels at
> 1000m/s which is about as fast as an normal 5.56 NATO round. And yet, the
> gaussrifle inflict 4D with a penetration of 7, while a 5.56 NATO in Traveller
> would inflict 3D at around 3 or 4 in penetration.
>   This would indicate that the bullet from a gaussrifle travels much faster
> than a normal rifle bullet, maybe somewhere in the range of 1500 to 2000 m/s.

In fact, the Imperial Encyclopedia does list the velocity as 1500 m/s.

>   How this weapon can be thought as being particularly recoilless is beyond
> me:)

MT does NOT list gauss weapons as being "recoilless".  They list them as
being "low recoil", which is appropriate.  If you consider both F=ma and
Newton's 3rd Law ("Equal and opposite reaction") then the amount of enery
delivered to each gauss needle (and thus acceleration, since the needle's
mass is constant) is equal to the amount of recoil energy delivered to
the gauss weapon firing the needle.  Since the weapon outweighs the needle
by several orders of magnitude (4 gm. vs. 3.5 Kg., in the case of a gauss
rifle), the recoil of the weapon is going to be virtually zip.

End of story.

                "Good afternoon, boys."
                        [ "What's THAT?"
                          "Oh that, it's just the computer.  I discovered
                           it had an emergency, back-up personality, which
                           I thought might be marginally preferable." ]
                "Now, this is going to be your first day on a strange
                 planet, so I want you all wrapped up, snug and warm,
                 and no playing with any naughty, bug-eyed monsters."
                        [ "I'm sorry.  I think we might have been better
                           off with a slide-rule." ]
                "RIGHT!  Who said that?"
                        [ "Will you open up the exit hatch, please?" ]
                "Not until whoever said that owns up!"
                        [ "Oh, God!" ]
                "Come on!"
                        [ "Computer!" ]
                "I'm waiting.  I can wait all day, if neccessary."
                        [ "Computer, if you don't open that exit hatch
                           this moment, I shall go straight to your major
                           data banks with a very large axe, and give
                           you reprogramming you'll never forget, is
                           that clear?" ]
                "... I can see this relationship is something we're ALL
                 going to have to work at."
                                - Ford and Zaphon have a go-around with
                                  Eddie's 'replacement'.

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
        [address removed]

INTERNET: [email removed]
          [email removed]

I apologise for the delay.  I have finally located my source of Traveller
military knowledge: Book 4, Mercenary.

Mark F. Cook [email removed] writes:
> In TML Subject 1761, Bertil Jonell ([email removed]> writes:
> >   The gaussrifle fires a small 4mm calibre bullet. This bullet travels at
> > 1000m/s which is about as fast as an normal 5.56 NATO round. And yet, the
> > gaussrifle inflict 4D with a penetration of 7, while a 5.56 NATO in Traveller
> > would inflict 3D at around 3 or 4 in penetration.
> >   This would indicate that the bullet from a gaussrifle travels much faster
> > than a normal rifle bullet, maybe somewhere in the range of 1500 to 2000 m/s.
>
> In fact, the Imperial Encyclopedia does list the velocity as 1500 m/s.

And so does Mercenary.  Incredible as it may seem, GDW have actually kept
something consistent! :-)

> >   How this weapon can be thought as being particularly recoilless is beyond
> > me:)
>
> MT does NOT list gauss weapons as being "recoilless".  They list them as
> being "low recoil", which is appropriate.  If you consider both F=ma and
> Newton's 3rd Law ("Equal and opposite reaction") then the amount of enery
> delivered to each gauss needle (and thus acceleration, since the needle's
> mass is constant) is equal to the amount of recoil energy delivered to
> the gauss weapon firing the needle.

Time for some number crunching.  First, a correction to the above.  It's
momentum, not energy, that Newton's 3rd law deals with.  Figures for Traveller
assault rifle and gauss rifle come from Book 4; figures for M-16 assault rifle
come from "The Armory" by Kevin Dockery, in brackets in the assault rifle part
for comparison.

	Mass of a fully loaded assault rifle = 3.33 kg	   (3.635 kg)
	Mass of a 6mm slug from assault rifle = 0.005 kg   (0.00365 kg)
	Velocity of slug = 900 m/s			   (999.7 m/s)
=>	Momentum of slug = 4.5 kg m/s			   (3.65 m/s)
By Newton's 3rd law, momentum of rifle = 4.5 kg m/s in the other direction.
=>	Velocity of rifle = 1.35 m/s			   (1.0 m/s)

	Mass of a fully loaded gauss rifle = 3.90 kg
	Mass of a 4mm needle from gauss rifle = 0.004 kg
	Velocity of needle = 1500 m/s
=>	Momentum of slug = 6 kg m/s
=>	Momentum of gauss rifle = 6 kg m/s the other way
=>	Velocity of rifle = 1.54 m/s
=>	A gauss rifle is no more a low recoil weapon than an assault rifle.

The gauss rifle gets its extra penetration from the small calibre plus the
greater impact; it gets its extra damage from the higher kinetic energy.
How it gets a low recoil is beyond me.  Maybe it incorporates a reactionless
drive. :-)

- - --
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  [email removed]
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   [email removed]