Agility, One Last Time

A thread of 4 messages, 21 August 1991 to 22 August 1991, in the order they were sent.

#2797 Agility, One Last Time

I wish I could repost the remarks I got on this subject on GEnie, but I was
surprised to discover that everyone who answered over there is in agreement:

We are calculating agility wrong...they really do mean the power left over
after all components, including the maneuver drive, are powered.  So, if you
want to have a ship that uses 30MW life support, 250MW of weapons, 120MW
of maneuver and has a high agility...go ahead and put in a 7000MW power plant.

(Makes no sense to me.  Sorry.)

Since this apparently has nothing to do with the maneuver drive (then why
does the maneuver drive limit 'emergency' agility?) there is no limit on
how much power can be used for agility.


On the same subject:  Some months ago I posted a note to someone who asked
if we should speed space combat up.  At the time I went into a long description
with a lot of math about how small a target was, and what the odds of hitting
it at 50,000km were, given the likely uncertainty in the _exact_ angle of
your fire.  Last week I sat down to see how much of an effect ship movement
would actually have, and was surprised to run through the numbers and discover
this:  If you have a 50m long ship (let's assume a sphere for convenience,
other shapes will produce other results, but the principle is the same), and
you shoot at it with _perfect_ aim, agility will help it if it can change its
predicted postion (movement vector) by more than one ship length in the time
it takes for the sensor position to travel back to you and the beam to go out.
At 50m and 6-G acceleration, this critical distance is about 200,000km.  For a
50m, 1G ship it is about 480,000km.  _At this range, you could track the ship
continuously and stay on target if you had perfect fire control_.  What would
this mean in game terms?  Well, it's really too late to do anything about it
now, BUT since the uncertainty in firing angle is much more important than
actual ship movement, the use of the attacking computer factor as an add-on
to the attack makes sense.  The use of any sort of defender agility as a
minus to the attack does not, and the use of the defender computer factor to
give a minus on the attack only makes sense if you assume that it represents
some sort of electronic countermeasures aimed at throwing off the attacker's
targetting data.  This isn't a bad assumption, but it seems to me like it might
only be possible with an active EMS jammer and/or EMM system.

For those wishing to figure other conditions the formula is:

Critical Distance=t*2*300,000km/sec

           --------------
          /ship length*2
t= \    / ---------------
    \ /   acceleration

Rob Dean

I've been overwhelmed by the Horde!

#2801 Re: Agility, One Last Time

Hi,

Want to hear a stupid idea?  If what I have been calling "excess" power
is the important thing in agility calculations.

(ie:  The power left over after ALL systems have been powered)

Ok, then shut down part of your maneuver drive.  You'll get a lot of power
back and it is now in the "excess" power.

So, Shut down the maneuver drive to increase agility?  Sound Stupid?
It works!  (try it!)  Therefore the "excess" power idea is stupid!

Scott Kellogg

#2804 Hordes of agility

"Robert S. Dean" [email removed] writes:
>
> We are calculating agility wrong...they really do mean the power left over
> after all components, including the maneuver drive, are powered.
> ...
> Since this apparently has nothing to do with the maneuver drive (then why
> does the maneuver drive limit 'emergency' agility?) there is no limit on
> how much power can be used for agility.

Perhaps you could ask them what is being used to convert raw power into
agility?  It isn't the manoeuvre drive, because that device's power is
calculated separately.  In fact, having a large manoeuvre drive will
_decrease_ your agility for a given power plant size!

[email removed] writes:
>
> So, Shut down the maneuver drive to increase agility?  Sound Stupid?
> It works!  (try it!)  Therefore the "excess" power idea is stupid!

Well, the MT system tries to avoid doing such calculations in the middle
of a game, probably because it would slow the game down a lot if each
ship kept recalculating its agility every time a weapon fired or someone
did something like the above to the manoeuvre drive.  So they ship specs
just list one agility value.

But, as I said, if you put in a smaller manoeuvre drive in the first place,
you get a higher agility.  This is just from power calculations; the mass
saved by using a smaller drive can be filled with cargo, non-energy weapons
or some other object which doesn't consume power, and the ship will still
be more agile than if it had the larger drive.

Either way, the MT method of calculating agility is stupid.

[email removed] writes:

>						Get rid of thruster
> plates, redo antigrav properly, put fusion rockets back into the game,
> and may the TDR be with you. Harrumph.

Agreed.  What's the point of having a large drive if you can't fry someone
with the exhaust, anyway?  :-)

- --
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  [email removed]
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   [email removed]

#2805 Re: Agility, One Last Time

> I wish I could repost the remarks I got on this subject on GEnie, but I was
> surprised to discover that everyone who answered over there is in agreement:
>
> We are calculating agility wrong...they really do mean the power left over
> after all components, including the maneuver drive, are powered.  So, if you
> want to have a ship that uses 30MW life support, 250MW of weapons, 120MW
> of maneuver and has a high agility...go ahead and put in a 7000MW power plant.
>
> (Makes no sense to me.  Sorry.)

  That only means that this is the way it should be done in MegaTraveller,
it is not the way it is done in Striker, and it don't say anything about TDR:)

>The use of any sort of defender agility as a
>minus to the attack does not, and the use of the defender computer factor to
>give a minus on the attack only makes sense if you assume that it represents
>some sort of electronic countermeasures aimed at throwing off the attacker's
>targetting data.  This isn't a bad assumption, but it seems to me like it might
>only be possible with an active EMS jammer and/or EMM system.

  In the old traveller space combat system, you only needed a ECM program to
start spoofing missiles.

  I suspect that the Passive/Active EMS arrays could be used as the
sensing/transmitting part of a ECM system if the signal-processing ciruits and
the computer are flexible and fast enough.
  Some years ago I read a introductiory text on electronic warfare and one of
the impressions I got is that most active systems could be done with a wide-
frequency band capable reciever (like the PassiveEMS) and a similarly wide-
frequency band capable strong transmitter.

  Fooling Neutrino detectors and Densitometers should be possible by playing
with the powerplant ('Neutrino-signature of second boogie rapidly increasing,
sir, looks like they are closing fast!') and the grav-plates.

- -bertil-
- --
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"