Standard guns and ammo

A thread of 2 messages, 26 August 1991 to 27 August 1991, in the order they were sent.

#2820 Standard guns and ammo

Marc Alexandrovich Volovic · 26 August 1991

Let's review the current situation.

Pistol, Centerfire, Semi-Auto, Narrow Skirt Ammo
       .25 ACP (6.35mm)
       7.62mm Tokarev M30
       7.63mm Mauser
       7.65mm (.30) [Walther PP series, for example]
       .32 ACP
       .380 ACP (9mm Short) [Multitudes of modern pistols]
       9mm Sov [Makarov]
       9mm Parabelum [Multitudes of modern pistols]
       10mm [Smith and Wesson 1006 and 1076, Glock 22]
       .41 AE [Jericho 941 and 941F, Smith and Wesson models]
       .45 ACP (11.4mm) [Colt M1911A]

Pistol, Centerfire, Revolver, Wide Skirt Ammo
       .357 Magnum [Revolvers, IMI Desert Eagle]
       .38 Long
       .38 Special
       .41 Magnum [Revolvers, IMI Desert Eagle]
       .44 Special
       .44-40
       .44 Magnum [Revolvers, IMI Desert Eagle]
       .45 Long Colt
       .455 SAA [Webley Revolver]

Rifle, Centerfire, Military (Military cartridges have Ball, Tracer,
Incendiary, Balistite, Training and AP rounds)
       4.7mm Caseless [G11 Assault Carbine]
       5.45mm Sov M-74 [AK-74 and derivatives]
       5.56mm Nato (.223 Remington) [M-16, Galil, S-80]
       7.62mm Nato (.308) [M-14, M60, Galil Sniper Rifle, LAR, FAR]
       7.62mm Sov M-43 [AK-47 and derivatives]
       7.62mm Sov M-54R [PKS, SVD]
       .50 (12.7mm Nato) [Barret M-80]

Rifle, Centerfire, Civilian
       .222 Magnum              .30-40 Krag
       .250                     .300 Magnum
       .270                     .303
       .280                     .308 (7.62mm Nato)
       7mm Mauser               .350
       7mm Magnum               .375
       .30 Carbine              .458 Magnum
       .30-06                   .460 Magnum

Looks bad enough?
Lets examine the most popular cartridge in the world - 9mm Parabelum:

The standard ball bullet is 115 grain full metal case (FMC) projectile.
But there are alternatives - I carry 122 grain FMC rounds in my pistol,
a friend of mine has alternating 147 grain semi-jacketed hollow point
(SJHP) and 127 grain FMC. There are also 94 grain jacketed hollow point
(JHP), 105 grain silvertip HP (SHP), 115 grain military grade FMC made
with stronger propellant (the +P rating of some 9mm Para bullets is the
civillian version of this type) which can damage pistols firing it too
many times (these rounds are for submachineguns - UZI, MAC-11, etc).

There is now a shotgun round for the 9mm - 8 pellets in a container round,
Glazer safety slugs, 85 grain high speed FMC, 100 (or near) grain soft nose
bullets. There are types I do not know about, probably.

In addition, the weights of the weapons seem wildly off the mark. Lets
examine a modern pistol in detail. The pistol is Smith and Wesson 5904
semi auto (indeed, the pistol I carry):

                S&W 5904        TL7 9mm Auto
Length:           195mm           200mm
Weight:           780gm          1350gm
Rounds:         15/20              15
15x115grain FMC: ~200gm
15x122grain FMC: ~180gm (very light round cases)
15x147grain SJHP:~400gm
15x9mm Imperial                   200gm
15x9mm AP Imperial                150gm

Problems: Weight! The heaviest 9mm I am acquainted with (CZ-75) weighs around
1000gm. The lightest (Glock 19) weighs around 480gm. Where did the 1350 figure
come from?

Bertil?

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Marc A. Volovic -                       Procrastinator and do-no-gooder|
| [email removed]            Snail: P.O.B. 23114, 91230 Jerusalem, Israel|
|             Dept. of Linguistics, Hebrew University, Mt. Scopus        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                       Fencers do it with rapid thrusts                 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

#2824 Re: Standard guns and ammo

Bertil Jonell · 27 August 1991 · reply to #2820

> In addition, the weights of the weapons seem wildly off the mark. Lets
> examine a modern pistol in detail. The pistol is Smith and Wesson 5904
> semi auto (indeed, the pistol I carry):
>
>                 S&W 5904        TL7 9mm Auto
> Length:           195mm           200mm
> Weight:           780gm          1350gm
> Rounds:         15/20              15
> 15x115grain FMC: ~200gm
> 15x122grain FMC: ~180gm (very light round cases)
> 15x147grain SJHP:~400gm
> 15x9mm Imperial                   200gm
> 15x9mm AP Imperial                150gm
>
> Problems: Weight! The heaviest 9mm I am acquainted with (CZ-75) weighs around
> 1000gm. The lightest (Glock 19) weighs around 480gm. Where did the 1350 figure
> come from?

  In 3G, the weight of the gun is dependent on the power of the round, which
directly affects the mass of the reciever and barrel, but the barrel is
greatly affected by length. The resulting weight of the gun can be reduced by
putting a multiplier on the price. I suspect that I put a 0.75 mod on the
weight of that gun, which gave a 2.0 mod on the price.

  The reason why it gets so heavy, is that the round has to be much more
powerful to penetrate AF 2, which compares to 5mm armor plate. Computing actual
penetration in mm using 3G/Timelords and crossreferencing this on the
Striker/MegaT chart of armor mods to get the penetration. This ment that it was
harder to get the lower penetrations (1-6) but much easier to get the higher
penetrations (7+) with the weapons. I 'punched up' the load of some of the
lighter weapons and rounds to reach their rated penetration in MegaT, but I
didn't decrease it for those that begun to overachieve.

  (A quick check with 3G gives that a TL7 9mmP has a DV (Damage Value, it gives
the penetration in MegaT) of 22, but the 9mm auto in the Imperial Encuclopedia
has a Pen of 2, and the round would need a DV of 27 to get a Pen of 2. There
wouldn't be any difference in penetration ability between a 9mmP or a
.357 Magnum if I did them with the real propellant loads, since all of them
would get a penetration of 1. (DV's between 14 and 26 are Pen 1, because the
Striker/MegaT armor factors are too far apart at the low end of the scale:
AF 1 = 2.5mm, AF 2 = 5mm, AF 3 = 7.5mm))

  Hmmm... (sound of opinion changing) I think I'm beginning to agree with Rob
about lowering the AVs of the armors, so that I wouldn't have to boost the
rounds, but what do we do with all the futuristic armors that we don't know
how thick they are? Keep as is? Divide by 2? Remember that the AF of 18 for
a Battledress-15 means that it's armor equals 5cm of armor plate!

> | Marc A. Volovic -                       Procrastinator and do-no-gooder|

- -bertil-

P Regina							      239-1121
  The spokessophont for the chamax plague issued a statement yesterday where it
  protested the non-equal treatment the chamax plague is recieving on the
  joke front. Usually well disinformed sources expect other groups like
  the 'Kinunir', the 'Bright Face' and the 'Marooned' will follow up with
  statements of their own soon.
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